WarrenA
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2003
Posts: 1,530
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Post by WarrenA on Mar 24, 2007 22:46:58 GMT -5
Has anyone ever had the thought cross through the brain that it isn't global warming but we are STILL coming out of the last glacier period?
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Post by Toad on Mar 25, 2007 7:16:30 GMT -5
I think that is my point, Warren. Sure, man can destroy and kill off life, but guess what that happened before we got here too. Just ask the dinosaurs. I think people over-estimate our impact, and the media makes feel guilty about being human. I believe in being as green as posible, but I'm not going to hate myself for the small footprint I leave behind.
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Post by lonewolfrockhound on Mar 25, 2007 7:23:19 GMT -5
I think that is my point, Warren. Sure, man can destroy and kill off life, but guess what that happened before we got here too. Just ask the dinosaurs. I think people over-estimate our impact, and the media makes feel guilty about being human. I believe in being as green as posible, but I'm not going to hate myself for the small footprint I leave behind. YEAH!!!! YEAH!!!! My thoughts exactly.
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Post by lonewolfrockhound on Mar 25, 2007 7:45:04 GMT -5
And please don’t take offence, I just like to discuss when a topic is taken further. No offense taken at all. I just can't believe you don't see not only facts, but logic in the swindle video shown. Many facts are presented. Al Gore uses the data himself. Problem is, he tells it all wrong. He screws it up. The correlation with CO2 and Earth temps DO correlate. just opposite though of what he and all those other earth warmers are saying. The Sun is the reason the earth warms and cools. CO2 levels follows along the same line but only hundreds of years after the fact. Having data and facts is just dandy.....let's just please make sure the data and facts support the hypothesis put forth. There's an old joke we tell in the business...."If the data doesn't fit the hypothesis, then change the data!". That's EXACTLY what we have going on here. I believe in keeping the earth clean too. Ok, sometimes I toss a ciggy butt out the window. Bad me. Oh, and I don't recycle either. My kids save cans but I think it's a pain in the ass but that's just me. They make some spending money so I say ok, save your dang cans. When I drink a soda, if the boys aren't looking, I throw the sucker in the trash can. We have to maintain a balance over this issue. West Texas, where I'm at has a huge oil industry. Some of the money that lands in my bank account comes from tax dollars levied upon that industry. I want the oil industry to succeed in America. I'm all for getting off foreign oil. Actually, I'm all for getting off oil as a fuel altogether....but only in good time and so that the transistion won't hurt our economy. I also think it's kinda funny that nobody addresses the issues surrounding developing nations and their own need for oil for fuel to drive the nuts and bolts of their own emergence. Out brothers and sisters in Africa need cheap, readily available oil to start their economies. Let them get it from the arabs. They got enough of it. Look at China....they are the up and coming oil glutton of the planet. Let's go over there and make sure they are responsible with their own actions (won't happen will it?) Al Gore's points about changing the way Americans use energy are good, alot of them anyway. I just wish he and his group wouldn't LIE about the data to get their own way. That's what upsets me. Why does he have to lie about the global warming data? Why? Is lying good now if it's supposedly to save the planet?
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free4rms
freely admits to licking rocks
My little pet walrus
Member since January 2007
Posts: 839
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Post by free4rms on Mar 25, 2007 9:48:16 GMT -5
Someone offered a link to a video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4520665474899458831) that supposedly showed that global warming was not a real threat. The first two people you will encounter in the video, Tim Ball and Ian Clark are both paid lobbyists for the oil and gas industry. Tim Ball is the chairman of the Natural Resources Stewardship Project, a spin off of the now debunked Friends of Science, which was bankrolled by the oil and energy industry. At bit of research on the internet will show that the Stewardship Project is linked to the energy industry. Professor Tim Ball has been paid to speak to federal MPs by a public-relations company that works for energy firms. His travel expenses are covered by a group supported by donors from the Alberta oil patch. So, this suggests his bias in the video is a result of his alliance with energy firms. Here are some links to articles that shows the inaccuracies (to put it mildly) involved in the video: environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,2032572,00.html inthegreen.typepad.com/blog/2007/03/deconstructing_.htmlh news.independent.co.uk/environment/climate_change/article2355956.ece ttp://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/swindled/ And Martin Durken, who made the video listed above, "achieved notoriety when his previous series on the environment for the channel, called Against Nature , was roundly condemned by the Independent Television Commission for misleading contributors on the purpose of the programmes, and for editing four interviewees in a way that "distorted or mispresented their known views". A few people quoted in the globla warming video also say that he misquoted them and/or misled them. Channel 4 (who showed the global warming video also) was forced to issue a humiliating apology. Whether you believe in global warming or not, it is worth knowing where those on both sides of the argument are coming from.
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Post by texaswoodie on Mar 25, 2007 11:19:12 GMT -5
Want to know how worried Al Gore is about global warming?
He has a huge house that takes more money to run in a month than most of us spend in a year.
He has several SUV's parked in his garage.
He has a private jet to take him around the country that uses more fossil fuel in one trip than normal folks use in a year.
Sounds to me like he's scared silly of global warming.
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Post by Cher on Mar 25, 2007 11:53:32 GMT -5
Isn't it true that when a volcano erupts, the gases, ash and whatnot do more damage in that one instance that humans can do in many years time? There's nothing wrong with being as green as you can but there's no way to stop what nature does itself.
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Post by Toad on Mar 25, 2007 12:59:17 GMT -5
Want to know how worried Al Gore is about global warming? He has a huge house that takes more money to run in a month than most of us spend in a year. He has several SUV's parked in his garage. He has a private jet to take him around the country that uses more fossil fuel in one trip than normal folks use in a year. Sounds to me like he's scared silly of global warming. Yeah, but he buys energy credits, so it's all okay. If he was really concerned he'd get his own house in order and buy some energy credits evrytime lonewolf throws a can in the garbage. ;D
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Post by Toad on Mar 25, 2007 13:03:04 GMT -5
Whether you believe in global warming or not, it is worth knowing where those on both sides of the argument are coming from. It's not a matter of believing in global warming. It may very well be getting warmer. Its all the reasons they try to shove down our thoats - the lying and manipulating (and yes, I'm sure there is lying on both sides) Let's regulate industry, find alternate energy sources, and be as responsible as we can individually. But the earth will do what it does. There is not much we can do to influence it.
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mirkaba
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2006
Posts: 321
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Post by mirkaba on Mar 25, 2007 13:45:32 GMT -5
I think everyone tends to forget that we (humankind) are a natural product and therefore a force of nature. There is nothing I know of that we can do that could even remotely be considered supernatural. Somewhere along the line I seem to have learned something about balance (isostacy) in nature. The next stage of global warming is global cooling and we are not even out of the last ice age.........Bob
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Post by freeform on Mar 25, 2007 15:00:47 GMT -5
Toad, theory states the Dinos didn’t consume themselves to death. Look at our are average heath for Americans. This is a fact in itself that most don’t give a rats ass about anything, let alone themselves. Or with the latest pet scare, we can pollute ourselves, which means we can pollute the environment. And as a part of the environment, cant it be said the environment could react similar as we to toxins and the like? Coming out of an Ice age is quite possible, just as possible as man can influence climate change. No one knows, but there are facts supporting both sides. your community made be more into green then others? I wish more were into green here in Phoenix, not many are. how fast can we build them homes, and squeeze them so close together so to fit more home and make more money. That’s the only concern with 90% of home developers around Phoenix. Then when the city comes waving the complaint, most just pay the fine. Each time it comes around. There is logic in the video you provided Lonewolf. But logic with a dollar sign in front of it, I am for that type of logic when the dollar is produce though non-polluting forms. That’s all. The African theory on why global warming is spouted makes me laugh. How is that any different from any third world country? Doesn’t that speak more about our consumption than there’s? Whose in charge of that Arab oil though? I think we are, or at least we are trying to be, are we not? Did you know most Americans consume at a rate of 10 to 1? If the whole worlds population consumed like most Americans do. There wouldn’t be enough planet earths for us. And looking at this site, seems we may actaully consume more like 20 to 1? www.mindfully.org/Sustainability/Americans-Consume-24percent.htmI gonna post this link into a new thread but check it out. Whats your footprint? Mine is 16 acers! Compared to most in my area who are 24 acers. www.earthday.net/footprint/index.asp This seems to be the meat of Algore's movie on global warming; And as you stated above as a "quasi-scientist" , As that’s my opinion about how trade names and the like are used and confused throughout lapidary. I hate it, most embrace it. Because its convieant. And that same joke works for vote counting doesn’t it? We all have bad habits when it comes to consumption. I think no matter what one believes, being able to recognize it is very important. Because the more you see your doing that, the higher chance you can curb it. I agree, getting off Foreign oil is very important. And supportting American jobs is too. So that’s a win win you got there for sure. I was apart of the Original GM electric car back in 1992-1995 My Photo school was contracted to photograph the cars around the valley and at any spotlight show and they picked me to do most of the work. I spent many months, days, and hours learning about and seeing these cars in action. But why did GM kill it? Even though every single car owner I knew and documented. Was willing to buy their test car. But GM said no. And took them all out to their proving ground here in Mesa and crushed them all. Seems like we want change, but the people in charge of our “things” doesn’t want change becasue its a risk to someones investment? Just image today if they kept that project going? Something like that itself would stop most left wingers like myself from touching more on Global warming. Instead of just general envriomental problems. Our biggest problem is we worry about others and not ourselves first. We need to clean up are own s**t before trying to clean up someone else’s. Besides China can just tell us to f off or they’ll cut us off. Then what? no more walmart or Cheap stuff we need to have. Everyone in charge is lying(thanks free4rms for pointing that out), we know that. The point still comes down to facts. We are changing our environment, weather it’s a small or large change. It is happening. Toad, If you lived out here in the Arizona Desert, I think you would see first hand how man can influence his environment for the worse. I think water is the key factor. Not oil. Not weather, not gov’t or politics. I think if more people can experience the choice of not being able to have something like basic water when they want to waste it. Will wake most up.
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Post by MrP on Mar 25, 2007 17:09:49 GMT -5
They tell us we had an Ice Age or two. I am thinking the only way to enter one is to cool off and the only way to have it end is to WARM up. When they can explain how man did that I will be a GW believer......MrP
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Post by Toad on Mar 25, 2007 19:02:06 GMT -5
They tell us we had an Ice Age or two. I am thinking the only way to enter one is to cool off and the only way to have it end is to WARM up. When they can explain how man did that I will be a GW believer......MrP Preach it brother. Yes, man pollutes the environment and consumes resources at a gluttonous rate but global warming is something else entirely. Freeform - if you want to talk about how humans are trashing the planet, I'm all with you. But I haven't seen anything to convince me that global warming is our fault. By the way, thanks for the very civil debate. I've been involved in threads where people just start flaming each other. You and I will probably never agree on this topic, but it is nice to know that we can talk about it without trashing each other.
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Post by rocklicker on Mar 25, 2007 22:43:19 GMT -5
Yeah Toad, this is one of the more civil of debates here. I started reading it thinking that it would have degraded significantly by page three, but it hasn't. I tend to stay out of political debates and I'm not about to get into this one, but I wanted to say something. It's nice when people can have their views and express them freely. When so many views these days are polarized so much that people go off the handle , it's nice to see this thread. I've always enjoyed that many different views exist on this board. Oh, and that rocks bring us all together. Now back to the rocks. Steve
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Post by freeform on Mar 26, 2007 13:59:50 GMT -5
By all means, I agree and enjoy civil debate. I dont find any one point wrong. Im just trying to understand it more becaue this type of dicussion i enjoy. So back to the flak.... From this site, which actaully makes allot of since and helps compile the info and facts. www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.htmlAnd this makes my point that man can effect climate change. As thats what im discussing, it turned in Global warming becasue of what others had to say. Anyone ever been in Pheonix during the monsoons can see in most cases. When a cell is approching the metro. It splits and moves around the city. ie, bcasue it it heat island. Sure its a long shot, but with a concrete jungle, the weather is different. That was the main point i am trying to get out. global warming to many folks means only one thing. And when they see that name, (which originally was brought up by the people who say it not real), think exactly that its nothing but lies. When in fact, as ive siad above. There is proof man can change his enviroment and effect climant. Sure, it may not be on a scale as the media and those in charge are trying to scare us into believing. But that doesnt mean we should be passive in our waste and comsumption when both can effect not only our health, but our envrioments health. But at the same time, what if we al the sudden started cooling, big time again. I bet the same folks on the either side would swtich sides on the debate of what caused it. So to better understand if we actaully had anything to do with it, good or bad. Just to know. The site link above has lots of good info. Mainly stating that there are facts on either side. But the warming we are exxperincing now has been going on for 1800 years. And is part of the natural process. But as with most sicece. In either cases its 90% theroy. So that should mean to a sicentist, its just as possible as it inst possible.
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Post by MrP on Mar 26, 2007 20:43:12 GMT -5
I remember growing up on the farm, in north central minnesota, and when it rained our farm and the ones right in our area always got less rain. The farms 3/4 mile north and those 1 1/2 miles south would get more. This was year after year. It was just like it would go around us. Dad always woundered what would cause it to happen. No concrete jungle there just the way it was......MrP
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stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,113
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Post by stefan on Mar 27, 2007 11:16:30 GMT -5
FUN!!!! OK just to jump in I think we all agree that Dollar SIgns are the driving force behind the debate- THat is not going to change- And I think we all agree that the climate has been changing- and THAT is not going to change (well ok I guess I mean that the changes are not going to stop) And the finger pointing does not begin to solve the problem (if their even is one) But we are on the Earth- We are NOT going to disappear anytime soon (or maybe we are???) and yes we will have an impact on the environment- but then Does not EVERY living thing?? I really think that there has not been "true" view on the warming issue- nor do I think that ANY government sponsered research is going to reveal the TRUTH
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Post by lonewolfrockhound on Mar 27, 2007 12:36:42 GMT -5
If he was really concerned he'd get his own house in order and buy some energy credits evrytime lonewolf throws a can in the garbage. ;D LMAO!
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Post by freeform on Mar 27, 2007 16:14:18 GMT -5
MRP- The point your making sounds like general odd weather. Like how fish and frogs can sometimes come down in a rainstorm. It happens, know one can actually say what causes it. But it happens. Most of our storms in Arizona our sky islands. And ive personally been poured on several times standing under bright sunshine, and watching a storm several miles away. The wind for its reasons is blowing the rain on me, though Im standing not under a storm, but next to one. It happens. here’s a link for you from a local paper here in the valley; www.azcentral.com/weather/monsoon/articles/0611heatisland.html and another link that talks more about how the weather is effected around these cities becasue of the heat that is produced. www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2006/arid_phoenix.htmlI cant seem to locate any dopler images of what Im talking about. But its not like as you describe. "One side getting rain, and the other not". Watching the weather during our monsoon usally shows a large storm coming up from the SW. By the time the cell gets to Chandler(south end of the valley), it splits, moves around the metro, and comes back together on the NE side. theres no mountains in the way, what do you think would cuase that? Here’s a lecture on the heat islands; www.r-s-c-c.org/rscc/Volume4/lougeay1/body_introduction.htmlAnd a satellite image of heat islands in the NE, USA. www.ems.psu.edu/~nese/heatisl.gifStefan- your right, every living thing has some type of impact on its own environment. But still comes down to consumption. Do those living things find ways to naturally balance its environment. OR do they just consume it all and move on? Im sure there are instances of that happening in the wild. Even on a scale that’s very harmful like the Bark beetle. But then the debate still comes back to us, as the only living thing on this planet (we know of) that can make choices about the harm and good it does. Vers just going about eating up everything in ones path becasue they feel they need to. I for one would like to know if what I do causes any impact to anything. Not just myself and those around me. Though I don’t have kids, and don’t believe in a return of a king. No matter what happens to us if WW3 goes down. This planet will still be here. I would just to know if what I do has an effect. I know the trash that keeps blowing into my yard from my neighbors is not the winds fault. To me, though I can complicate this type of discussion. Its that simple in my eyes.
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