|
Post by cpdad on Dec 26, 2007 21:23:51 GMT -5
no smileys here....i have to layoff 2 people friday...maybe long....cause i wanna try to make sense this time.
i wanted to wait untill after the 1st of the year...before i had to lay them off....but the owner said no....no reason for delaying what has to happen....i was told to make my decisions...and do it friday afternoon....let the bookeeper know friday morning so there checks can be cut for what they are owed.
i asked him...well who do you think should be layed off....he said....i dont work them....you do....you know them better than i do.
so heres where the make me feel better or not comes in....i chose the oldest...and the youngest....but for these reasons.
the oldest has about 4 months untill he can retire for his social security...hes 61....he has said...that he cant retire at 62....he has to wait untill 65....he just cant to afford to.
but he can at least draw unemployment untill he is 62....thats 320 a week....then file for retirement if needed and have money coming in....he has lots of experience....and is a great guy....i hope 1 of the other shops would pick him up....but they just dont wanna hire older folks....thats my thinkink for him.....at least money would be coming the whole time...whether enough or not....he has no one else living with him.
the youngest guy is 22...he has been with me since he was 18....fresh out of trade school....i would love to keep him....but he still lives at home with his parents....and would be taken care of if he doesnt have a job....he is a fast learner...and works overtime when asked....he is going to be a really good machinist....this is kinda what pains me....im sure he will be hired by someone....specially leaving my shop....they learn it all here.
the folks in between are great also....they are 28 to 58 years old...but everyone of them either have a family...or are living on there own.
the oldest will have some money coming at all times....and the youngest will will be taken care of for at least a little while.
am i wrong in my thinking here.....firing people is cool....having to lay people off is a mess....and a first for me....im serious...this is eating at me....kev.
|
|
|
Post by docone31 on Dec 26, 2007 21:52:45 GMT -5
Cp, tough position to be in. Laying off the older person, is not doing him a favour. Neither is laying off the younger. What happened to seniority? Last in, first out. I mean life is tough. That is the way it is. If the person being laid off is a slacker and lay off is an excuse rather than firing, that is one thing. But if it is for lack of work, seniority. You do not want to open the door to a law suit. How come the boss is not doing the layoff? Machineists are hard to come by. Especially good ones. When I have found a good employee, I have floated them past the hard times. Yeah, it costs, but it is better than teaching a tradesman to compete, knowing my rules. This does not sound like anything I would do. First in, last out, last in, first out. Unless they warranted dismissal, then a duck is a duck.
|
|
|
Post by cpdad on Dec 26, 2007 22:13:44 GMT -5
doc...thats my problem....i have no slackers.
the owner leaves it up to me to run the place....so i have to make the decisions....his wife comes in sometimes....to check on stuff....but i have to make day to day decisions.
he comes in to make major decisions such as stuff over 10k....just to check behind me before i drop 20k on something....even though i have never been overuled.
my only thinking was that the older would have income coming the whole time...if needed.
and the younger one....would not be on the street...if he didnt get another job right away.
where the others could possibly be thrown out of there homes...or there family go hungry....if they couldnt get another job right away.
and yes...its from our work going overseas....we lost a lot of it.....hopefully we can maintain what we have now...kev.
|
|
|
Post by ladyt on Dec 26, 2007 22:17:22 GMT -5
Yep, that's what happened to me. Last in, First out. Seniority rules on layoffs. sad but true. T
|
|
|
Post by catmandewe on Dec 26, 2007 22:39:42 GMT -5
What I would do, is get them all together and tell them that, even though you don't want to, you have to lay 2 people off, ask for 2 volunteers. If anyone is thinking of moving or switching careers, they could volunteer to be the layoffs. If that doesn't happen, then offer up your ideas, or use the seniority plan. It is either that, or find other niches to fill. I am a firm believer there are more than 2 answers to every problem. If you could find work in other areas, maybe you would not have to lay them off.
One of our local machine shops laid off some workers, one of the laid off workers started making spark plug wire holders and powder coating them and selling them in the hotrod magazines, 5 years later he is a millionaire. Sometimes some things happen for the best, even though it does not seem like it.
Good luck with whatever you do.......................Tony
|
|
|
Post by docone31 on Dec 26, 2007 22:45:31 GMT -5
Layoffs suck, no question about it. Sad to say, almost everything is being outsourced. Almost no one does it in shop anymore. Trades people are a memory. It has to be last in, first out, if there are 5 or more employees. Otherwise you open some real litigation possibilities. The old guy, will be waiting 18 months for his retirement to kick in. If he gets it first appeal. The young guy, who knows. Back in my corporate days, it was up to date of employ. I used to lay off 6500 people at a time. I was monkey in the middle. There were suicides, divorces, hate mail, flat tires, vandalism, etc.... When I started my shop I made a point of doing everything in house, even refineing. It is harder, and takes much longer to get proficient. Instead of the five year guidline, it took 15yrs. Today, I do trade work for the big boys. No one can do what I do. It did not happen, I worked for that. With a layoff, that is pure economics. Last in, first out. That is life. The shop has to survive. A layoff is a good chance to take a good look. If work is being outsourced, why? What makes them more competitive? What is being overlooked? Efficiency management, logistics, motivation. It has been over 20yrs since I had to make those descisions. I still feel sad over having to do it, but, the company had to survive. I had no say over what would have made a difference. That is life. Tough choice, it is not like you do not know them. I am sure they all have a feeling. You lose a few good people, more seasoned people are going to make sure they do not get laid off. Even if it means they relocate. Next time, have a system to in existance so there are no suprises. I incorporated a point system where I was. Key people and entry level earned points for reaching certain levels. This in some cases bypassed seniority. Absenteeism is another factor. However, in a layoff absenteeism cannot be used. I think you gonna have to have a talk with the big guy. He knows the appropriate labour laws that relate to the situation. Or at least he should. Another aspect, a layoff now, is putting people in front of the advancing wave of layoffs to come. In one way, that is good. The tough survive. In another way, it is miserable. Long lines for one job. You sleep on it Kev. You got some time yet. I think you already know the ultimate answer. It is just a painful thing. I bet you know everyone on a personal level and this is miserable. It is never easy. They will be ok, or they will not. Life will go on. The company will get stronger or will fizzle. That is business. Good luck.
|
|
KG1960
has rocks in the head
Member since August 2008
Posts: 512
|
Post by KG1960 on Dec 26, 2007 22:58:00 GMT -5
Here's my thoughts (which may be worth nothing) - you are in a tough position. I think your owner is wimping out on making the decision himself, but that's the way it goes. Your thoughts have some logic, but you are trying to predict the future for other people, it's close to impossible to do so for yourself, let alone for others. You know their situations based only on what they have chosen to tell you and only in the way they have chosen to tell you. As others have said, seniority rules in layoffs, sad but true.
|
|
KG1960
has rocks in the head
Member since August 2008
Posts: 512
|
Post by KG1960 on Dec 26, 2007 23:03:20 GMT -5
I see two other posts were made while I was typing. Catmandewe has a good idea. Get everyone together and explain the situation. It doesn't make the situation any better, but all will at least understand. I think there will be more resentment if you make the decision without input from your employees, especially since there are only four of them.
|
|
|
Post by docone31 on Dec 26, 2007 23:22:29 GMT -5
Yeppir, I do agree with discussion, and choice. There might just be two who want a vacation. Suprise them and trust is gone. Talk, if it ends there, then make a choice. At least everyone feels they had a choice. That makes a tough issue a little less tough. What if you laid yourself off? Then you would only have to lay off one more? Lay yourself off, and become an outside contractor. Put everyone on a 10/31 and make everyone an outside contractor. That would change everything. If the economic predictions are true, that might be an ultimate answer.
|
|
|
Post by cpdad on Dec 26, 2007 23:22:36 GMT -5
actually there is 10 of them....i have to layoff 2....the owner isnt passing the buck at all.....i do the hiring and firing when needed....which has never been a problem.....firing someone is easy....laying 2 peope off...isnt easy....i have never had to do it before.
i know they gonna say why.....but....i think all knew it was coming...kev.
|
|
|
Post by cpdad on Dec 26, 2007 23:36:38 GMT -5
o.k.....will gather them up tommorow....and explain...and see what happens...kev.
|
|
|
Post by docone31 on Dec 26, 2007 23:42:05 GMT -5
Kev, I do not envy you. Firing someone is tough enough, a lay off is nasty. It always feels so empty, so futile. I am glad you had the chance to lay some weight on us. I never did. I would be in my office and some Bambi would come in with a memo. That day, no prep. Talk to them, who knows. At least you tried under less than perfect conditions. You will be glad when it is over. So will they.
|
|
|
Post by sandsman1 on Dec 27, 2007 0:55:14 GMT -5
if it was me i wouldnt fire the older guy he's gonna have the hardest time trying to get another job id go with last in first out if i had to make the choice
|
|
|
Post by rockyraccoon on Dec 27, 2007 10:15:09 GMT -5
don't know a thing about having to wonder which ones ought to go because every one we ever get needs to go. i cannot imagine having a whole group of workers that do their job, show up on time, whistle while they work...i didn't know they even existed.
kim
|
|
huffstuff
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since August 2007
Posts: 1,222
|
Post by huffstuff on Dec 27, 2007 13:53:19 GMT -5
Kev, don't really know what to say, I'll pray for you and for all of your workers.
Amy
|
|
onewomanarmy
has rocks in the head
Carpe Silicis!
Member since January 2007
Posts: 645
|
Post by onewomanarmy on Dec 27, 2007 14:04:17 GMT -5
Kev - hope in talking to your crew you find some other options in all this - maybe a couple or even one person who will volunteer would help. I think as an employee in this situation I would appreciate and remember most the way you handled the situation in coming to the employees involved. You're a good guy, and I know you'll do the best you can with what you've got - we've seen that out of you more than once on these boards. Sometimes that makes things like this harder though. We'll be thinking about you - hoping for some (better) solutions to show themselves.
shannon
|
|
|
Post by cpdad on Dec 27, 2007 20:23:58 GMT -5
well just couldnt use the seniority thingy...well kinda almost ;D...see im smiling again...things didnt go to bad.
i didnt wait untill tomm...did it today....and the oldest stayed..if ya wondering.
i talked to the 2 before hand....let them know they were being laid off...neither asked about senoirity....they both figured it was going to be them...if it happened....it was the last 1 hired...and the 8th 1 hired.....the 1 in the middle of them is just a better machinist.....figured i better look out for my own rearend somewhere in this mess.
had my little meeting to explain a little....after that...told them meetings over ...never told them who got laid off...take 5 minutes to talk it over amongst yourselfs....figured they would find out from the 2 during the there meeting...i didnt want to announce there names....figured it best if they told the rest.
i dont feel to bad bout it...i thought i would....but seems they understood....and both asked me if worked picked up...would i give them a call....even if they have jobs elsewhere...i told them i most certainly would....and i will hire them back...if i can.
man i have learned a lot in the last year...good...and bad....so everything turned out as well as could be expected.
kim.....i had to fire a few along the way to get this group ;D....always of there doing though...had many like you said ;D...thats why i said firing someone doesnt bother me ;D. ...kev.
|
|