Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 12:42:09 GMT -5
Hi All,
One great thing about this forum is that everyone has different views on things and by listening to each others opinions, we all learn something new or see something in a way we otherwise wouldnt have. With that said, I am a little puzzled by something and would like everyone's opinion.
In the lapidary world, I have a major pet peeve and it is cabs with fractures, pits or other unsightly flaws. As a mentor of mine has said many times "life is too short to bother with inferior materials". There are so many good materials available that I feel that there is just no reason to cab with glaring flaws present. Not to say my cabs are perfect, I am a beginner after all but I am talking about the MATERIAL specifically.
When I am cabbing, if a flaw shows up, I generally chuck the piece in the tumbling bucket. Yes, stone is a natural substance and therefore is often imperfect, but it is my goal to take the best that nature has provided and accentuate that. A fracture going through the cab or a pit or something detracts from the appearance of the finished cabochon. If I were to walk into a jewelry store and the jeweler was showing me a piece with an obvious flaw, I would never buy it. I think most of you would agree. And likewise, if I was giving a gift, I would not want visible flaws as I feel that it lessens the quality of my work. That takes me to my question...........I see many gorgeous cabs on this forum but I have noticed that some people seem to just ignore the flaws in the stone as if they are not there. Why?
I honestly cant think of a single specific person or cab in this question, its just a general question that I have always wondered about.
Shannon
|
|
|
|
Post by texaswoodie on Jan 2, 2008 12:50:32 GMT -5
I voted dipose of the cabs, but there is one exception. I do a lot of specimen cabs. I fix the pits in those, but I leave the fractures and crystal vugs.
Curt
|
|
|
|
Post by stardiamond on Jan 2, 2008 13:01:41 GMT -5
I have a lot of cabs with flaws, most of them are from my workmanship; scratches and uneven girdles that I didn't notice until I was done with final polishing. The lighting in my work area isn't good and the reflection from the wet cabs makes it hard for me to see. I put those cabs away to be worked on later. The really nice ones get fixed at my next cabbing session and the others sit. I also put away cabs with fractures and pits. If the material is really nice there is the option of recutting to get below the pits or redesigning and recutting the fractured pieces. My wife had me throw away around 50 cabs, many of them that she had bought that were either ugly or boring. If a cab is interesting but has a flaw and can't be fxed, I can't see tossing it. Someone might like it even with the flaw. Morgan Hill has healed an partially healed fractures.
One exception, if a cab has a fracture that may cause it to break and can't be recut, it gets tossed.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2008 13:27:22 GMT -5
I agree that there are always exceptions. Morgan Hill for example.........especially if they are healed fractures in a material that almost ALWAYS has them. I also dont consider crystal vugs to be flaws (although many do). They are natural occurrences that can really add to the beauty of a cab. I am talking more about fractures, pits, or other flaws that appear during the cabbing process. I have seen wrapped cabs with fractures in them and just wonder why someone would wrap a flaw in expensive gold or silver wire? Or continue to finish a cab with a big fracture that detracts from the beauty of the polished stone?
Shannon
|
|
RedwoodRocks
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since March 2003
Posts: 762
|
Post by RedwoodRocks on Jan 2, 2008 15:18:59 GMT -5
Fractured pieces either go into the tumbling bucket or added to the junk pile, most likely the junk pile.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tweetiepy on Jan 2, 2008 16:36:14 GMT -5
Goodness, lots of mine would end up in the trash if I disposed of the flawed ones, I think the tumbler pile is great for that purpose - but I do hate it when you get a yucky one!
|
|
kjohn0102
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since April 2006
Posts: 774
|
Post by kjohn0102 on Jan 2, 2008 16:36:23 GMT -5
Junk pile, tumbling bucket or redesign. I've got A LOT in the "re-design" pile!
Karen
|
|
|
|
Post by akansan on Jan 2, 2008 17:37:32 GMT -5
I've cabbed and wrapped flawed (fractured) stones before. I've unknowingly purchased (prior to cabbing myself) flawed stones. Most of those flawed ones remain in my family. If the fracture isn't critical - isn't going to cause the piece to break sometime during wear - then I'll wrap it and either keep it or give it to a family member.
Pits, undercutting, and such are a different group of flaws, though. Those go in the redesign, tumbling, or tumbler fodder piles.
Basically, if the flaw doesn't affect the stone's design - a fracture through a beatiful band, a chip in the edge of the cab, undercutting anywhere - I'll use it in something.
|
|
|
|
Post by larrywyland3 on Jan 2, 2008 17:57:35 GMT -5
I voted to ignore the flaws. I actually don't ignore them, but there was no work them in or do acceptable fixes and disclose. That is what I do; if I use hot stuff I disclose it. As far as perfect goes I use the term; sometimes, but in reality there is no such thing; in the final analysis of perfect you find that everything is perfect and everything is flawed. One persons trash is another persons treasure; mental loop. But to the nature of your question; here is my two cents. Many very nice materials have frequent flaws. If you were to toss everything that had a partially healed fracture or unsightly vug you would toss away a lot of interesting cabs. I think a great looking cab with no hot stuff or noticeable flaws is more desirable and more valuable than one that has one or both and I find the price reflects that. If you look to standards in the faceted gemstone area the flaws are incorporated into a grading system. Some materials like emerald are classed as type 3; meaning that you can expect to see flaws with the naked eye. I believe that some of our cabbing materials are truly as valuable as some of the facet material. At some point cabbing became a step down from faceting; if the material was not facet grade then it was only good for cabbing. Have you ever seen a facet grade jasper; no faceting takes advantage of a stone transparency and qualities like refractivity and color dispersion. I see it as a product of a marketing not to many big dollar businesses have been marketing cabbed stones. I have seen some changes in the past year. I hope someday to create some beautiful high dollar pieces; 18k gold and cabbed stones with some facets as accessories  I got started in this because I love looking at the variety of beauty in the natural rocks we buy and/or self collect. If I create what I think is beautiful and expensive and no one wants to buy it; I'll keep doing it and give them away as gifts or hang em on my wall; it is art to me. The ones that are exceptional in their beauty and rare for their type and are without what most see as flaws are pretty near priceless in my book. You would have to cut a lot of Morgan hill to find one with lots of colors and distinct poppies that did not have a partially healed fracture. I agree there is a point at which something goes in the tumbling pile; but I also tumble some vug free and fracture free material; it all depends what I am trying to create. I have posted several times that it is all lapidary arts. Tumbling is a tool/method that allows you to accomplish certain things with easy and/or that can really only be done with a rotary or vib. You want to do a cross in stone tumbling is a great tool to use to accomplish that goal. If you want to bring something out in a stone and cut away the excess; accentuate the finest qualities then you need to use a cabbing machine and possibly other tools to do that. I don't see a hierarchy from faceting down to tumbling I see a workshop filled with tools and methods. If something is so fractured or full of vugs that it tumbling is the most sensible means to shape it and polish it than that makes sense to me. Let the action of the tumbler break it apart grind away most or all the vugs and let is be what it be. I see the RTH board filled with different artists expressing a view; employing differing perspectives and talents. The simplest definition of art is the expression of one idea from one person to another. From the time the first human picked up an interesting rock/mineral and kept it to show others we have been using rocks/minerals in artistic ways. I can see were some are trying to express perfection and exhibit rarity and beauty. This can be done by calibrated cuts or selection of material that meets a standard to communicate this. Did I digress a little  sorry I do that and I think I am way past 2 cents. In short, less flaws better; perfect spend a lifetime searching for it and you won't be wasting your time. Just reflect on the possibility that beauty can be flawed and sometimes it is the flaws that we find beautiful. Lots of turquoise was tossed into the garbage, because it was not blue enough or had lots of black running through it. One old timer reflected on all the gorgeous cabs that got dumped in a land fill because no one could see the beauty in the rough. |
|
|
|
Post by Bikerrandy on Jan 2, 2008 19:48:46 GMT -5
I voted to dispose of. I guess I have a different way of thinking, being a car restorer/streetrod builder. I sometimes get overly critical about anything that's flawed. Now druzies on the other hand, they're like a beauty mark. ;D
|
|
Sabre52
Cave Dweller 
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,497
|
Post by Sabre52 on Jan 2, 2008 20:06:16 GMT -5
Yeah, sometimes it's a difficult choice especially if the material is a rare or one of a kind find. I usually chuck'em if they are badly flawed or fill pits if possible and if I really like the stone. We're very seismic out here in the west and many of our jaspers especially, have fractures or softer sections which are annoying. With many natural gems, flaws are just part of the stones nature. I mainly try to get the best example of a material that I can and cut the best slab or cab I can. Then if I don't like it, I chuck it in the tumbler and throw it in the kiddie treasure chest at our club show because the kids just like pretty, not perfect.....Mel
|
|
|
|
Post by texaswoodie on Jan 2, 2008 20:17:52 GMT -5
Ya know this seems like it is no longer for enjoyment, BUT TO CREATE THE PERFECT CAB... Hell diamond cutters even cut the less than perfect stuff. If only perfect stones are cut you probably would not have a diamond on your hand. With standards to the point of throwing everything out that is less than perfect you wont find much to cut. Nature is not perfect. And in fact that is how they tell the fakes. ALL STONES HAVE IMPERFECTIONS. The 3 choices are not quite fair. There is more to it.. Jim Normally you cannot see a flaw in a diamond without a loupe. Personally, I would not buy a piece of jewelry that had a cab with an unhealed fracture in it, but I would and have bought diamonds with flaws that cannot be easily seen. Curt |
|
|
|
Post by MrP on Jan 2, 2008 22:06:53 GMT -5
This Christmas, when I sold the pendants to raise money for World Vision, I was surprised with some of the pendants that were chosen. They wanted me to bring in all the pendants I had made. I was wishing I had left a lot of them at home. They ended up picking out a lot of those I thought were junk. They would explain to me just how they wanted it to hang. Seeing them wear them now I see why they wanted it. I am not sure if you noticed but not to many of us humans are without flaws either......MrP
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 0:48:15 GMT -5
For me, the ENJOYMENT is in getting a stone as perfect as possible. Most things in life are not without flaw but striving to get it as close as possible is a good thing in my book. Just like striving to do everything in life to the best of ones ability. That is generally never a bad thing is it? And Ive never found that improving the quality of my work lessens the enjoyment I get out of the process in any way at all. On the contrary, its part of the learning process that I enjoy. People can purchase mass produced cabochons for cents each. For those of us that still produce each cab one at a time and put our heart and soul into each one, it seems that producing the best you can would be a common goal?
The intention of this thread and poll was not to start a "one mans trash is another mans treasure" discussion or to remind us that humans have flaws. All of those things go without saying, but to stay on subject, I was just simply wondering what people do when halfway through the cabbing process, a flaw is discovered. Maybe I should have worded the poll differently. I think its a completely different subject than rock gifts given to you by children, specimen collecting etc. Thats why I posted this in the "Cabochons" subforum and not the general one.
When I use the reference "chuck, throw, toss" etc. I am not physically disposing of the stone. As in, throwing it in the garbage or in a hole in the ground or something. The stone will still be used in some way........either re-cut into a different shaped cab to salvage the material, tumbling, flower pot fill, yard ornaments, etc. Their beauty will still be there for all to see. I just prefer to not have obvious flawed stones hanging around my neck or on my wrist or finger. As I would never purchase something like this myself, I do not want to produce it either. Just a pet peeve of mine......thank you all for your opinions, I value all of them as I hope you do mine.
Shannon
|
|
|
|
Post by bobby1 on Jan 3, 2008 0:55:38 GMT -5
When I was taught, by my uncle, how to cut and polish cabs 50 years ago this year, he had some basic standards. They were:
1. Don't cut a cab with any flaws such as pits, vugs, fractures or undercutting.
2. Always dome the top, however slight, when the thickness permits the dome.
3. Always polish the back as well as the front.
4. Always strive for a mirror polish, though it may not be achieved on all material.
5. Always add a slight bevel to the back of the girdle to prevent chipping during setting.
6. Always ensure the stone is symetrical if it is a geometric shape - oval, square, round, triangle, heart shape, etc.
These are the standards that I always work toward.
Of course in those times, finding flawless rough was much easier than today.
Also, freeform cabs were not common then as they are today, but freeform cabs can be cut and polished to meet these standards.
I very rarely encounter a flaw or fracture while I am cutting the cab because:
1. When I am examining rough to cut, if I detect any of these flaws in the area where I would be locating the cab I don't buy it.
2. If I detect any of these flaws in the slabs I cut, I again reject it. I toss it in the tumbler. Usually the slab fails at the fractures and often the resulting polished pieces reveal a desirable piece that I will cut a cab from later.
I do my work as a hobby only so I have the luxury to be very picky with what I do and what I work with. I don't have to get a fixed yield from my rough to get a return on my investment. I feel that if I am going to invest my time in doing something I owe it to myself to do the best job possible.
As many of you have stated above, the general public doesn't often have the same perception of what constitutes quality and are unwilling to pay for it. What we perceive as flaws means something different to others. This establishes a market for almost anything that is put before them and this material does sell. I am happy that I don't have to compete in this market.
I am satisfied to see that there are other viewpoints than my own. What a boring world this would be if we were all alike!
Sorry for the rambling soapbox.
Bob
|
|
|
|
Post by rockds on Jan 3, 2008 1:46:38 GMT -5
any flaws go into the tumbler, unless I want to keep the cab a "personal cab" not to be sold. I've given away some with flaws but would never sell one.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 11:35:03 GMT -5
Jim, Yep, you got it. Just wanted to see if there were other anal folks out there like myself. I am also a specimen collector and certainly dont have perfect specimens.......and I love them all. It was just the cabbing part I was curious about. Shannon |
|
|
|
Post by stardiamond on Jan 3, 2008 13:27:16 GMT -5
If I tried for perfection, I would go crazy. I can only cut to my current level of ability. I could spend 3 times longer on a cab with only a marginal improvement. I have taken particularly challenging cabs (shape or material), quit working on them and put them aside for some future date when I might be ready to make another attempt. For example, trying to cut a perfect circle using indian paint jasper leads to increasing smaller circles.
|
|
|
|
Post by akansan on Jan 3, 2008 14:38:44 GMT -5
LOL @ stardiamond. I know exactly what you mean.
I guess I should clarify my statement earlier about using flawed material. The fractured stones I've wrapped have all fractured during the polish stage - overheating, I'm sure. I don't choose flawed material just because I like the color. But if the flaw happens in the last stages, I evaluate the piece to see if I still care for it after the flaw appears.
NONE of my cabs are perfect. It will be a while before my cabs are 100% textbook perfect. However, the cabs I make in the wraps I sell are all good enough that I'm not ashamed of them. The cabs I make in the wraps I give away might have a few minor flaws that are unnoticeable from the front of the piece.
|
|
|
|
Post by larrywyland3 on Jan 3, 2008 15:13:29 GMT -5
Hi All, That takes me to my question...........I see many gorgeous cabs on this forum but I have noticed that some people seem to just ignore the flaws in the stone as if they are not there. Why? Shannon I am one of those people. I also cut material that is without flaw. Like you I strive to improve and if I were going to be charging some spendy prices for a finished piece I would want the cab to be exceptional. I see nothing wrong with having a pet peeve. You asked why; so I gave my wordy answer. I will try again with a pic and share some of my thinking process. This is again to get to the why.  The material here is Tahoma; it can be vuggy stuff and I have seen a lot of cracks in it. It is also not a plentiful material and fairly unique in general from other materials. It almost went into the tumbler because it was so cracky. But that swan looking thing and there was something that looked more like a moon in the top left near the brown area. I love the scenic stuff and with my wild and active imagination that swan was paddling around in a break in the black ice and I just had to give it a try. Most of the cracks ground away and only the vug at the bottom has hot stuff in it. If you had this material it would have gone in the tumbler; nothing wrong with that. I just saw something fairly unique in the material and was willing to accept that it would have cracks. None of the cracks will cause the cab to break into two or cause a piece to pop out. Thats why I did it. I thought that you were looking for more information. The poll only gets you how many; not why. As far as the trash and treasure part. I was trying to communicate how people can have vastly different ideas about the value of a thing. Not that anything was "trash" I do value your opinion and everyone's ideas and methods. Also, sorry if I was sounding like I was emphasizing the dollar stuff too much. I like doing this as a hobby more than anything. But I see the time and beauty in what we do and I see a lot of junk that sells for big dollars; so I can't help think why not. If I could make a living doing lapidary work; it wouldn't be like working at all ;D |
|
I got started in this because I love looking at the variety of beauty in the natural rocks we buy and/or self collect. If I create what I think is beautiful and expensive and no one wants to buy it; I'll keep doing it and give them away as gifts or hang em on my wall; it is art to me. The ones that are exceptional in their beauty and rare for their type and are without what most see as flaws are pretty near priceless in my book. You would have to cut a lot of Morgan hill to find one with lots of colors and distinct poppies that did not have a partially healed fracture. I agree there is a point at which something goes in the tumbling pile; but I also tumble some vug free and fracture free material; it all depends what I am trying to create. I have posted several times that it is all lapidary arts. Tumbling is a tool/method that allows you to accomplish certain things with easy and/or that can really only be done with a rotary or vib. You want to do a cross in stone tumbling is a great tool to use to accomplish that goal. If you want to bring something out in a stone and cut away the excess; accentuate the finest qualities then you need to use a cabbing machine and possibly other tools to do that. I don't see a hierarchy from faceting down to tumbling I see a workshop filled with tools and methods. If something is so fractured or full of vugs that it tumbling is the most sensible means to shape it and polish it than that makes sense to me. Let the action of the tumbler break it apart grind away most or all the vugs and let is be what it be. I see the RTH board filled with different artists expressing a view; employing differing perspectives and talents. The simplest definition of art is the expression of one idea from one person to another. From the time the first human picked up an interesting rock/mineral and kept it to show others we have been using rocks/minerals in artistic ways. I can see were some are trying to express perfection and exhibit rarity and beauty. This can be done by calibrated cuts or selection of material that meets a standard to communicate this. Did I digress a little 
sorry I do that and I think I am way past 2 cents. In short, less flaws better; perfect spend a lifetime searching for it and you won't be wasting your time. Just reflect on the possibility that beauty can be flawed and sometimes it is the flaws that we find beautiful. Lots of turquoise was tossed into the garbage, because it was not blue enough or had lots of black running through it. One old timer reflected on all the gorgeous cabs that got dumped in a land fill because no one could see the beauty in the rough.
