mcl
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2009
Posts: 5 
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Post by mcl on Jan 9, 2009 14:58:44 GMT -5
I was hoping someone here could help me figure out a few things regarding rock tumbling using a vibratory rock tumbler. I'm new at this, though I have been collecting rocks for some time now (mostly agate and jasper). Some of them are already really pretty, but I would like to know what they would look like once nicely polished.
Since I wanted to preserve the natural shape of my rocks, I purchased a vibratory rock tumbler (Raytech TV-5), which came with a four-step grinding & polishing pack (Silicon Carbide 100/120, Silicon Carbide 700F, Iolox 50 and Raybrite TL).
The instructions I received call for use 2 teaspoons of grit and 4 teaspoons of water (for about 3 lb of stones). That did not seem like a lot of grit and water to me, but hey, what do I know - I'm following the instructions.
1) First thing I noticed after the first step is that the grit is getting imbedded in the bowl. No amount of scrubbing can remove it. Is that normal? Also, little bits of plastic from the inside of the bowl are peeling off. I have one bowl for each step, so there should not be any contamination, but still, I find that a bit odd, and I'm worried that my bowls won't last very long!
2) To what degree I can expect the pits and other imperfections to be removed from my rocks? Let's say I have a perfectly smooth surface except for a pit caused by a small fold of rock; will tumbling in a vibratory tumbler eventually get rid of that? Would adding a first step with a coarser grit help?
3) Can I use Ivory soap flakes in a vibratory tumbler? I have been washing and scrubbing the stones by hand (like you would potatoes) between steps so far. Could I tumble them with Ivory soap to clean them between steps instead?
4) How do I know what "good tumbling action" looks like? Is there a specific way the rocks should be moving? On the whole, they seem to be moving all around, turning on themselves and in a circulary fashion around the bowl, disappearing to the bottom and popping up again at the top. But the larger stones seem to move better, while the smaller stones tend to all end up at the bottom, and don't come back up as much. Also, the filler I use (small, non-abrasive ceramic pellets) seems to accumulate more to one side instead of remaining spread out evenly through the load). Am I doing something wrong? Is it because there is not enough water, or not enough slurry (water + grit)? How important is it that the tumbler be on a perfectly level surface?
6) How do I know if there is enough water or not? What is the slurry consistency I should be aiming for at each step?
Phew! That's a lot of questions! But that's it for now. I would really welcome any advice you can provide!
Thanks to everyone for all the great posts on this website.
Rock on!
MCL
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Post by deb193redux on Jan 10, 2009 13:38:21 GMT -5
Deeper pits, like a fold, should be cut or broken into two stones. Smaller pits, like 1/16 in will be worn down - but extra time is needed. Good results come from starting with relatively crevase and pitt free rock, (or starting them in a rotary),
Water & slurry should be just a light thin paste that clings to the rocks. IF you can see standing water in the bottom it is way too much. If the grit looks like it is drying out or getting thick and crumbly, then spray some more water.
Generally if the spray momentarily pushes away grit and you see clean rock, then the rock gets recovered right away - that is just about right.
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Post by frane on Jan 10, 2009 16:18:46 GMT -5
Hi mcl.
I have the same vibe that you do. The bowl problems are distressing and had I known about the plastic bowl problems, I probably would have waited and gotten a little more expensive one that has the rubber bowls.
That being said, the grit will stay embedded. As long as you have that polishing bowl, don't worry about it. If the pitting is too bad in the bowl, try to file the areas down so the stones aren't tripping over those areas. I have noticed that if you start with jagged rocks, it really messes the bowl up within the first few hours. I have been using rotary tumblers to get the shape rounded and then put them in the vibe. If you don't have a rotary, try to break off the jagged areas before starting in the vibe. Or, just reserve this first, messed up bowl for the initial, smoothing out phase. You can add a pinch of borax to your bowl and then add the grit. Never put more grit than what is recommended in the load. It will not help it at all. The bowl needs to stay 3/4ths full to avoid chipping (that is my big problem that I am just starting to remedy). This may mean that you will need to finish the first grit on a load and then start another rough load and get it to the same phase. Then move to the next step with plenty of rock and some in reserve for that next load.
When you are ready to pull the stones and rinse them for the next step, you can add a little more borax or even ivory snow (just a pinch) to the vibe and let it run for at least 15 minutes. It will help the stones to rinse off much easier. You can do a borax wash alone, after everything has been rinsed off, but I have only found that it is beneficial right before you put your tumble in the final polish bowl. Then, I recommend that you wash everything out really well, return the stones to the old bowl that you just used and run with about a tablespoon of borax and a little more water than you would use normally. Run for about an hour, rinse and repeat. Then rinse and put in the polish bowl.
With this bowl, a good action is when you see the stones slipping under and when they are at the edge, they fold over so you see a good rotation. You want your grit to stick to your stones, not the bowl so you only need a little water and use a spray bottle to moisten the stones to keep that movement without washing all the grit off and having it sit at the bottom of your bowl.
Oh, I was told by Raytech not to use ceramic pellets with this bowl. Believe it or not, they said to use plastic if needed but recommended that I try to just stick to rocks in the bowl without filler. They said that ceramic could damage the bowl (I think everything does).
Hopefully that helps a little.
Fran
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mcl
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2009
Posts: 5
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Post by mcl on Jan 11, 2009 9:39:27 GMT -5
Hi deb193redux,
Thanks for your input about the pits and crevices. Hmm. If I understand correctly, it looks like I might have to start over with some of my stones to get rid of the smaller imperfections if I find they bother me. But I like a somewhat natural look too. We'll see once they're done.
I also think, from what you tell me, that some of my stones might need to be cut at some point if I want better results, but that will have to wait, since I don't yet have the tools for that.
Thanks also for the info on the slurry --- that's exactly what I needed! Sure beats the "Add water if necessary" instruction that came with the tumbler --- with no explanation whatsoever about how to tell if adding water IS necessary!
Thanks again!
MCL
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llanago
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2004
Posts: 1,714
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Post by llanago on Jan 11, 2009 10:27:53 GMT -5
I always barrel tumbled my rocks for the first two stages. The
coarser grits are REALLY hard on the bowls. I used the RayTech for my pre-polish and polish stages.
BTW, if ya'll need some bowls, I have a brand new one (still in the box) and a couple of used ones (I think somewhere in my storage room). I also have a little bit of each of the grits that come with the tumbler. I'll sell 'em cheap!
llana
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mcl
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2009
Posts: 5
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Post by mcl on Jan 11, 2009 10:28:20 GMT -5
Hi Fran,
Well, and here I was worried I had gotten some defective bowls somehow. Sorta glad that's not the case, although like you, not sure I would have bought these if I had known. But since I use separate bowls for each step, I guess that as long as they do the job it's alright. I'll try to get my hands on some borax if it'll help with the cleaning. Didn't know about that. Thanks!
From what you tell me, I think my tumbling is happening correctly and that my slurry is good --- except maybe for one time when things got really sticky and then I overcorrected with too much water, and then added grit, thinking it would help, and ended up with useless rock soup that wouldn't mix together at all. Wasted all the grit I put in and had to start over. I'll stick to the instructions from now on and use the spray bottle to make adjustments! Thanks!
As for the ceramic pellets, I'm surprised that Raytech told you not to use them --- when I posted these questions I also wrote them (but I thought I'd ask here anyway in case they didn't reply) and I just got a reply: they're actually telling me to use nothing but ceramic pellets as filler! :s
I guess since the bowl got all messed up with only rocks anyway, I don't think non-abrasive ceramic pellets will make things worse. I'll post it here if they do, but I really doubt it.
Thanks again!
MCL
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MikeS
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2009
Posts: 1,081
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Post by MikeS on Jan 12, 2009 1:58:57 GMT -5
I'm with Ilana...I always use a rotory tumbler for the coarse grinds...it's faster, it does a much better job of shaping, and it doesn't mess up the vibratory bowl. Vibratory polishers just are not very good at shaping. If you plan on being in the hobby for any length of time, I highly recommend picking up a rotory tumbler for first and second stage shaping, it's well worth the investment.
In the meantime, here are some tips I've picked up in the past that work when using a coarse grit in a vibratory...as stated above, don't use too much water. But even with the proper amount of water and grit, you will still have a tendancy to have a grit/slurry/small stone mix gum up at the bottom of the bowl. I have found that if you rotate the bowl 180 degrees in its frame every so often during operation, the direction of travel of the stones in the bowl is reversed and this grit gum is scraped off and reintroduced back into the majority of the stones. Of course the gum will just start to build up on the other side again, so this process needs to be repeated often during this stage of shaping.
As for cleaning the bowl and help ridding it of embedded grit, the best way I have found to do this is this....once you remove the shaped rocks from the bowl, scrub the bowl out as good as you can using soapy water and a bottle brush, do it a few times, rinsing real well. Do the same to the rocks, be sure to scrub out all the nooks and crevices, I use an electric toothbrush to do this. Once you have the bowl and rocks as clean as you can get them, put them back in the bowl and burnish them for at least several days using a water/soap mix. I fill the bowl up to about a third the level of the rocks with hot water, and use ivory bar soap shavings. I just use an old cheese grater to make the shavings, I use 2 tablespoons or more of shavings. This seems to help dislodge and break down a lot of the embedded grit both in the bowl and on the rocks. After this burnish stage, throughly clean the rocks and bowl again.
Any coarse grit remaining will usually break down in the subsequent stages, and I have found that any carryover remaining typically isn't enough to affect the later stages...
Hope this helps....
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Post by Jack ( Yorkshire) on Jan 12, 2009 5:26:06 GMT -5
Hi MCL, As above what Mike & Llana say on stage one, I use Rotary for stage one then my 3 1/2 lb Lot"O" Vibe to finish off & heres a link to the results img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/john-edward/E-VibeApril2.jpg And one of my first batches img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/john-edward/Vibebatch3008.jpgAl ot is to do with water to grit ratios and regular checking , if you grit is stuck to the bowl I would say its been to dry Conrock helped me in getting this shine from the first batch, And has a good recepie I can send you it if you want by Email john@matco.me.uk if your interested ? I have sent this out to a lot of RTH members Have a good day. Jack Yorkshire uk |
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mcl
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2009
Posts: 5
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Post by mcl on Jan 12, 2009 9:33:02 GMT -5
Hi all,
Thanks for the helpful posts on the Rock Tumbling Hobby website and in this thread. I will resist the temptation of getting a rotary tumbler for now as I would really, really like to preserve the shape of my stones while getting them all nice, smooth and shiny. I'm gonna give the hopper a few more tries before I give up and start the process with a rotary.
Jack: In the meantime, I would definitely be interested in a shine recipe (mclavallee@hotmail.com), especially since the kit I got with the tumbler I purchased yielded rather poor results. Not sure what happened there. It was a four-step process [steps 1 and 2 = SiC 100/120 and SiC 700F], and the stones already looked great after step 3, "prepolish with Iolox 50" (not sure what's in it). They were quite shiny already and looked like they only needed a bit of a final polish to really bring out the translucent parts. But after step four, "polish with Raybrite TL" (again, not sure what the composition of that polish is), pretty much all of my rocks turned dull with this unbelievably stubborn white residue stuck in every little crack! I'm thinking of starting over (after washing the stones thoroughly with borax and whatever else might be needed) and of using a different grit & polish series I found on several websites: SiC 220, SiC 400, SiC 600, SiC 1000, SnO2 and CeO2. I will also try rotating the bowl periodically, and I will check the load a bit more often I think, to make sure the slurry is always good.
But before I go ahead and buy all that grit and polish, if another shine recipe will yield good results with agate and jasper, I'm all ears...
Thanks!
You all have a great day!
MCL
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Post by Bikerrandy on Jan 12, 2009 10:40:32 GMT -5
Woah, 100/120? Go to www.therockshed.com and get one of their kits. it comes with 120/220, 500, and Aluminum oxide polish. My stuff comes out like glass every time. Here's the formula that I use, 3.5 years and going strong!! ...... Most of us use a spray bottle to apply the water to the tumble. When using a vibe tumbler, you should only add enough water the get the grit to cling to the stones. Also, the vibe bowl should be 3/4 full. Any less and the tumbler won't work efficiently. Run the stones in the coarse grit for two days, checking the load 3-4 times a day. If the movement of the stones starts to slow down, give then a couple sprays until they move again and put the lid back on. After two days, clean off the stones and inspect. ("NEVER" wash the load in your sink) The slurry will turn into concrete in your plumbing. It's best to clean them outside. I use and old window screen to dump the rocks on. If they aren't smooth enough for your liking, add fresh coarse grit and start the tumble again. If you think that they are smooth enough, place them back into the bowl, add 500 grit and start the tumble again. The 500 grit won't require a re-charge. I run my load in the 500 grit for three days (checking 3-4 times a day). On the third day, clean the stones really good, scrub the inside of the bowl and lid, place the stones back into the bowl and run them in Borax and water for three hours. Rinse the stones and bowl, then you're ready for the polish stage. The reason for the Borax is that you want to ensure there's absolutely no reminants of any grit whatsoever in the load before moving on, or your polish stage will be wasted. Note that there are only three stages (grit) for a vibe tumbler.... Coarse 120/220, Fine 500, and polish. For polish, Aluminum Oxide works the best in a vibe. The Rockshed has the best AO polish, and Shawn is a really cool guy to deal with. If you have any questions, keep on posting!! ....or you can send me a PM anytime. |
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MikeS
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2009
Posts: 1,081
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Post by MikeS on Jan 12, 2009 13:28:51 GMT -5
I agree, the white aluminium oxide polish definately yeilds the best results in a vibe. The Cerium Oxide is supposed to be good for material like quartz, but I have always found it difficult to get the mix just right, ie too thick and it doesn't work, too runny and it doesn't work, ect. That and it makes a bigger mess, and often leaves a "film" on the finished stones that can be difficult to remove. In my experience, CeO is better suited for use in hand polishing a piece using a wet leather pad than it is for use in any tumbler or vibe. Aluminium oxide on the other hand is very forgiving, and it works well on any material (I even use it for quartz and jade). The only drawback I can think of with Aluminium oxide is that since it is bright white, it tends to show a bit if it works its way into a hairline crack or fracture on the stone, but a good burnish stage and hand cleaning with an electric toothbrush will help minimize this.
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mcl
off to a rocking start
Member since January 2009
Posts: 5
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Post by mcl on Jan 12, 2009 16:27:20 GMT -5
Wow, thanks guys!
I was going to ask about grit & polish quantities for the 3-step process "Coarse 120/220, Fine 500, and Aluminum Oxide polish", but I see on the Rockshed website that the kit comes with instructions. I'll just wait until I get it!
For the burnish process, what media do I use? Ground walnut shells? (Sorry, I'm really new at this and I don't know anything!)
Also, the water here is very hard --- can that have an impact on my results? Should I add a pinch of borax to my loads?
MCL
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MikeS
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2009
Posts: 1,081
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Post by MikeS on Jan 12, 2009 16:49:30 GMT -5
I use shavings from a bar of ivory soap in my burnish stages....
The hard water isn't a concern (we have a TDS of around 400 in our water here), as the minerals are dissolved in the water, not in a solid form...
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Post by llana2go on Jan 12, 2009 18:57:58 GMT -5
mcl
"polish with Raybrite TL"
This polish really sux! Ruined my first batch I did in the vibe. I think I did a do-over in 500/700 grit, then used another polish.
Don't give up though! Tumbling is an exercise in trial and error!
llana
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Post by Jack ( Yorkshire) on Jan 14, 2009 4:39:25 GMT -5
Hi MCL.
Sent the guide you asked for.
Folow it closley and you will have a shine to be proud of
Rocks
If you can get hold of coast rounded rocks or pre cuts this will help you to get going Vibes are NOT good in stage 1 (one) at all, the need hourly checking and a lot of attention,
They are very agressive even in stage 2 (on a resonably flat surface) and produce a lot of dirt resulting in having to spray to keep this medium mobile if it sets your in big trouble !!
I use CO and our water is very hard,
I (personaly )would have done a 12 hour Borax/ wash Burnish stage after 700 G folowed by CO
I find TO will go into every little crack and especialy if the goop dries out a bit in a vibe (i have used Rapid 61) which I think is TO based , (other members please correct me if im wrong)
Hope this helps you will get there
Jack
Yorkshire UK
PS
If your trying to get sharp hammer broken Agates smoothed down IN the Vibe , I dont think you will make it
If their flat ish they will "Slither" rather than tumble and as a result you get flatish shapes with sharpish edges using a Vibe
Jack
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