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Post by stonesthatrock on Feb 13, 2009 19:45:51 GMT -5
ok i'm gonna try to describe this problem the best i can. my slab saw slows down and stops when i'm cutting a rock. I have change the blade, had the motor checked, tried different rocks and still the same thing happens. It will cut for awhile and then you hear it slow down and finally stop right in the middle of cutting. i shut it off, pull the vise back and restart it and sometimes it will continue to cut, other times it will bog down and stop again. i called lortone and the guy there didn't know what it could be.
anyoone have any ideas for me??
ty ralph and mary ann
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misguidedone
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since May 2007
Posts: 94
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Post by misguidedone on Feb 13, 2009 20:04:39 GMT -5
Ralph, Your arbor could be out of alignment with your carriage. Check it by clamping a pencil or pointed object into the vise and crank it up to the front of your blade, push your carriage back and you'll know right away if that is it. It should maintain the same distance all the way back. A problem I have right now, just like yours, is a worn out slide on my 14" saw. The cutting action of the blade lifts my carriage 1/2 way into a cut and stalls the motor. My bushings are shot! Hope this is of some help. Steve
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Post by Bikerrandy on Feb 13, 2009 20:23:03 GMT -5
Ralph, Your arbor could be out of alignment with your carriage. That's exactly what happened to mine. Make sure that all the bolts are tight, one of arbor bolts had came loose and threw the blade way out of alignment, the blade would stop in the middle of every single cut!
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jimrbto
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since April 2007
Posts: 94
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Post by jimrbto on Feb 13, 2009 20:26:53 GMT -5
CRAZY! ! ! The rep at Lortone had no idea?? Have you checked the blade/carriage alignment? They must be as near absolutely parallel as possible. Make sure saw is OFF. Attach a dial indicator to the vise, adjust the indicator rod to just touch the blade behind the diamond area of the blade, move the vise toward the arbor and observe the indicator. There should be little or no difference in the indication from rim to center. If there is you will have to do and alignment fix. Is your blade dished? Slowly rotate the blade by hand and watch for shift of the cutting edge, (wobble) Is there enough coolant for the blade? Does the blade need "sharpening"? Without seeing the machine in action these are a couple things I can suggest that you can check to see if they are a problem. Can't understand Lortone not being more responsive than they were, perhaps you got hold of a dud. Good luck Jim
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Post by texaswoodie on Feb 13, 2009 20:27:42 GMT -5
Ralph, Your arbor could be out of alignment with your carriage. Check it by clamping a pencil or pointed object into the vise and crank it up to the front of your blade, push your carriage back and you'll know right away if that is it. It should maintain the same distance all the way back. A problem I have right now, just like yours, is a worn out slide on my 14" saw. The cutting action of the blade lifts my carriage 1/2 way into a cut and stalls the motor. My bushings are shot! Hope this is of some help. Steve What Steve said. And it could also be a dished blade. All these will make your saw do that. Obviously the Lortone guy doesn't do much if any cutting. Curt
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colliel82
has rocks in the head
Member since November 2007
Posts: 664
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Post by colliel82 on Feb 13, 2009 20:31:01 GMT -5
When I first got my used Lortone, I had the same problem. When I had someone else look at it, the belt from the motor wasn't tight enough. Once I lowered the motor a little more it worked fine.
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hope
spending too much on rocks
Member since May 2008
Posts: 477
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Post by hope on Feb 13, 2009 21:48:33 GMT -5
Hi MaryAnn, I had the same problem with my 16 inch saw and this is what I figured out. The rock I was cutting was extremely hard and the blade was cloggin up before I could get through the rock. Consequently the vise was pushing hard against the saw blade, pushing the blade a little sideways, and causing the cut to go crooked. I noticed that when I backed the blade out it went sideways a little. I put a straight edge across the blade that extended out past the cut in the rock. The cut was definitely going crooked from the alignment of the saw blade. The longer you try to cut, the more the blade gets bound in the cut, and then finally stalls out. I attributed my problem to a very hard and larger rock and a somewhat thin cheaper blade. I solved my problem by putting those rocks on a bigger saw with a much stiffer(more expensive blade), and slowed the big saw down considerably.
Don't know if this helps you, but your problem sounded familar to me.
Hope
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Post by snowdog on Feb 13, 2009 21:49:41 GMT -5
there's prob a combination of things going on -- the rock your cutting is pretty thick & hard , your feed into it is a bit too strong so the rock is trying to ride up the blade-- if the vice has any up/down play in it the rock will ride up just enough to bind the blade ( same as misalignment)--- like you say sometimes if the motor has enough power it will go on thu (but your cutting an extra wide slot in the rock ) if it gets too tight then it will stop or the belt will start slipping --- some have a bolt adjustment under the carriage to keep it close to the slide bars --just don't tighten it so much that it can't slide freely -------hope this helps
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brent
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2008
Posts: 1,316
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Post by brent on Feb 13, 2009 22:21:12 GMT -5
My 10" does the same thing. On softer rocks it cuts fine, but on agate it will stall out. I am increasing the blade speed to see if that helps. I might have to change the blade as well.
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Post by catmandewe on Feb 13, 2009 22:53:59 GMT -5
Flip your blade around, see if it still does it. If it still does it, you are out of alignment. If that fixes it, your blade needed sharpened or it is dished.
Easiest way to find out which direction to go, unless of course you are running a directional blade, then you need to check alignment first.
Tony
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rockhound97058
freely admits to licking rocks
Thundereggs - Oregons Official State Rock!
Member since January 2006
Posts: 760
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Post by rockhound97058 on Feb 14, 2009 1:49:58 GMT -5
Wow found another person with the same problem! I myself bought a 18" Lortone several years ago and have nothing but problems! It's the biggest piece of junk ever! Of course you might have something else as an Issue. First off one thing that seems to help is make sure you have a good sharp blade. One quick "band-aid" fix to sharpen your blade is this: Take a Metal Bastard File and turn it on edge.... Start tapping the leading edge of your blade... Not the sides! just the leading "cutting edge" of your blade. Do this around the entire blade. It's an old trick a old Rockhound/ship builder taught me and it works great! What happens is as you tap the edge... the file is mashing or spreading away metal exposing fresh diamonds. Here's my story of saw problems! - I encountered the same exact problem as you I would cut and the saw would slow down and actually stop half way through the stone. The only thing I could ever cut was soft obsidian, and small agates 3" and under. Anything larger and forget it. I have changed blades, sharpened blades, measured the thickness of my blade (which was one part of my problem *read blade problem below*) and I completely tore down and rebuilt the entire saw. Even after placing a brand spanking new blade in it - it still would "bog" down during cuts especially with hard materials. What I finally ended up doing was eliminating the belt guard on the side... I then eliminated the (3) step pulley to adjust the feed speed and went to a much larger pulley to slow down the feed rate.... I then went to a smaller pulley on the blade... So my theory is - Slow down the feed rate and at the same time spin the blade faster to clear out the kerf. It actually worked very well! Keep in mind - don't get the blade spinning too fast as this will set up vibrations and cause much more serious cutting problems. **My Blade Problem** - Ok one of my problems I found out was a brand new blade. I took a set of calipers and measured the leading "cutting edge" of the blade and it was X number mm's.... slide in towards the center arbor and it was thicker! A defunk blade! so the blade was acting as a wedge while it cut... Even after replacing this I still have problems until I changed the pulleys around. Now 2 weeks ago it's been cutting fine for some time now. Then one day I chucked up a smaller Thundereggs and started cutting. A short while later I went back to check on the saw and it was stopped dead... As I got closer to it, the motor was still running but everything was dead silent... OK broke a belt? Nope believe it or not it sheered off the 1/2" shaft on the front of the saw which runs the worm drive for the feedrate. I have no idea how, or why is broke this steel shaft, but some mystical way it did. To top it off, that's a machined shaft and I had to get creative to fix that problem. After a hour of cutting, welding, and grinding I finally got it back up and running. It's been cutting fine again for a couple weeks (knock on wood), well till the next problem. I honestly would have to say, if I have one more problem with the Lortone, I'm gonna fill it full of gas - light a match and watch it melt into a puddle of melted metal! I have to admit though I have never in my life owned a saw that has been such a piece of junk! My main work horse is a 1950's 20" Highland park and the only problem I have ever had is broken belt. Heck I even cut rock in it way too large and I have never had a problem at all! If you need any details on pulley sizes shoot me a email rockhound@netcnct.net Jason www.oregonthundereggs.com
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Post by akansan on Feb 14, 2009 11:54:49 GMT -5
I had a similar problem with my 14" drop saw - kept bogging down in the cut. My problem was my belt wasn't tight enough. I slid my motor back just a hair, and it's stopped bogging down.
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brent
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2008
Posts: 1,316
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Post by brent on Feb 14, 2009 15:55:40 GMT -5
Fixed my saw. I increased the size of pulley on my motor(my arbor speed is now around 2000 rpm). I checked allignment(within .003"). I changed my blade. The blades I ran from day one re .050" thick. The one I put on is .100". I put in a rock that had stalled the saw before, and now it cuts with very little effort at all. Now I wish I had gravity feed.
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Post by catmandewe on Feb 14, 2009 16:30:11 GMT -5
Gravity feed is easy to do, just a small cable, a pulley, a splash guard and some thing for a weight. Thats a good idea, maybe I will go do that right now!!
Tony
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Gem'n I
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since March 2008
Posts: 980
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Post by Gem'n I on Feb 14, 2009 16:51:51 GMT -5
One other issue which may contribute to the problem you are having is if the rock shifts in your vice during the cut...this will automatically throw off the alignment and eventually dish the blade. If the rock is loose in the vice it will try to ride up the blade and cause a jamming of the initial line the blade started stalling the motor...you have to be sure the rock will not move in the vice at all. Also if the blade is in use for a while...the thickness of the kerf becomes an issue...what happens is the lead of the kerf is smaller than the back of that kerf allowing it to start cutting but then jamming the larger back end of the kerf...you need to tap it back into shape as was mentioned before. There was a question I asked about a month or so back on blade run out that someone posted some instructions on blade care...might be worth taking a look at.
Larry
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edbapa2012
off to a rocking start
Member since June 2014
Posts: 1
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Post by edbapa2012 on Jun 21, 2014 17:19:26 GMT -5
The negative comments on the LS 18 are in my opinion undeserved. My LS 18 is 50 - 60 years old and has been completely rebuilt twice. It runs very reliably. The thing is that these machines are simple, but yet require some very close tolerances. And the user has to have some patience and know how when working on one. The Lortone people have been very helpful to me when I have to work on mine. A couple of tips: 1) Be methodical in analyzing the problem, trying to pin down where the problem is occurring (motor output pulley, arbor pulley, blade alignment, jack shaft pulley, feed shaft, half nut, etc.). The saw compnents operate in series and any problem along the series can be compounded, 2) Recognize that when you disassemble a component, you will need to restore the machine to fairly close tolerances for it to run reliably and not damage other components, 3) Maintain the components per the manufacturer's specs (oil, blade dressing, replacing belts, etc.) Preventive measures will help ensure longer life and reliable performance.
The problem Ralph and Mary Ann described may be a loose belt, a blade alignment issue, or a worn half nut. I suggest starting at the motor out pulley and moving through the components as described above to isolate the problem
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QuailRiver
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,640
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Post by QuailRiver on Jun 21, 2014 20:52:30 GMT -5
The negative comments on the LS 18 are in my opinion undeserved. My LS 18 is 50 - 60 years old and has been completely rebuilt twice. It runs very reliably. The thing is that these machines are simple, but yet require some very close tolerances. And the user has to have some patience and know how when working on one. The Lortone people have been very helpful to me when I have to work on mine. A couple of tips: 1) Be methodical in analyzing the problem, trying to pin down where the problem is occurring (motor output pulley, arbor pulley, blade alignment, jack shaft pulley, feed shaft, half nut, etc.). The saw compnents operate in series and any problem along the series can be compounded, 2) Recognize that when you disassemble a component, you will need to restore the machine to fairly close tolerances for it to run reliably and not damage other components, 3) Maintain the components per the manufacturer's specs (oil, blade dressing, replacing belts, etc.) Preventive measures will help ensure longer life and reliable performance. The problem Ralph and Mary Ann described may be a loose belt, a blade alignment issue, or a worn half nut. I suggest starting at the motor out pulley and moving through the components as described above to isolate the problem This is a 5 year old thread but I guess it's still relevant. I buy a lot of old collections and have had Lortone saws made from the 1960s all the way up to brand new ones and I think most of the old time rock hounds on here will agree with me that your 50-60 year old Lortone was much better built than the new ones are today. I would take a well cared for old gold painted 1960s Lortone saw over a brand new one if given the choice. But I would take a 50 year old Frantom/Highland Park saw over a 50 year old Lortone without a second thought. I agree that the folks at Lortone are friendly and try to be helpful but that doesn't change the fact that their quality has really slipped and some of their equipment, like the 14" panther, has design flaws. Larry C.
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Post by Rockoonz on Jun 21, 2014 22:20:30 GMT -5
FYI the blade alignment measurement process described in this thread is only possible with a blade that is absolutely flat with zero runout, and they don't exist. You must mark a spot on the blade, take your measurement at the front with the dial gauge centered on your mark, then move the carriage with dial gauge to the rear and rotate the blade to line up the mark, then compare the readings, which should be less than .005" difference. All measurements must be taken at the exact same point on the blade to be accurate.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 22, 2014 12:55:38 GMT -5
Yup, Lots of the larger saws and it seems Lortones especially, have too fast a feed rate for harder materials which results in dished blades etc. My old HP had the same problem so I doubled the size of the drive pulley to slow it way down. Still, the larger saws do seem to have way more issues. I also had alignment, dishing and dulling issues over time. The problem with the larger blades is their thickness which allows the edges to get rounded and as you get deeper into a big cut the blade can bind as the wider part of the blade gets down into the narrower cut left by the rounded edge. Some folks peen the edges to spread them back out and expose more diamond, some folks square the edges back off with an edge grinder etc. Barranca used to repair blades for $50 which was great but they no longer do this. One of the reasons I got rid of my 20 inch saw was the blade life issue. Small 10 inch blades I seem to be able to use till all the diamond is gone. Larger 20" blades almost always got screwed up in some fashion or another within 100 hours of use ( I kept a log for years and figured it was costing me almost $3 per hour in blade cost to cut rocks). The big saws just seem to require a lot more mechanical skill and knowledge to keep them running well and that alignment issue is really a pain. My old rig had a weird bolt system to adjust alignment and it took a dial indicator and lots of patience to get that thing running straight and even then, one tough piece of jade or agate could dish out that damn blade in a heartbeat. My new motto is " You can always break down a bigger rock to fit a smaller saw" and really, how large of a slab is necessary to cut a cab. One cab wonder slabs work just dandy and a ten inch saw is much cheaper and easier to run, even my piece of crap Covington way out preforms my old 20 inch HP. I used to have an old Beacon Star 10 inch that had a huge vice and a large area in front of the blade. I could cut 3 1/2 inch by five inch slabs all day with that booger and not even be in the same room. Had a very powerful motor and cut fast and easy. Power feed never overheated and worked like a dream ( Unlike my current Covington) Power feed finally shorted out and burnt the rig up but that saw lasted me for like ten years of trouble free use...Mel
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Post by Rockoonz on Jun 22, 2014 15:11:43 GMT -5
Sabre52 I'm with you Mel, most of my rough gets cut on the 10" Jenkins/Royal saw or the 14" HP saw, the 18's and the 24 only run when needed and mostly to cut rough down to fit into the smaller saws. I was overjoyed to find the 10" standard cabinet style slab saw, me and the flat top trim/slab style saws have never gotten along. The LS18 that I maintain for the rock clubs shop has been the most reliable and probably most used of the 3 there, the 16 inch semi-homebuilt kit saw comes in 2nd and the Magnum Hydro 24 incher comes in a distant last, a collection of (mostly) well engineered parts in a flimsy box that tends to flex under the stress of cutting the large rocks it is supposed to be able to cut. I need to rebuild the carriage for the LS18 before the shop re-opens Aug 1, I will take pics and create a thread on the process, after that we'll see if I still like the old saw.
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