firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jun 9, 2009 20:19:33 GMT -5
I posted a couple of weeks ago that I had rec'd a vibe for my BD. I ran a batch through the vibe that had come ready out of pre-polish in one of the rotaries. I tried to follow Randy's advice to the letter, and I think I was pretty close to accurate with water to polish ratios, and I also believe the action was correct in that the rocks would fold over on themselves (kind of like watching my washing machine..  ) After 6 days in polish (using AO from The Rock Shed) I then ran them in a Borax burnish for 48 hours. At the end of this, I was very happy with the shine the vibe seemed to accomplish, but it did "eat up" some of my rocks (a pretty Banded Amethyst I had babied through the rotaries) but what I was even more disappointed with was the amount of polish which it left embedded in the rocks. I have tried everything to get that out and nothing has worked. In some cases the rocks probably weren't perfect, and had some small pits, in other cases these were rocks which were marred naturally with indentations and I liked them that way. I've read several posts here from the dedicated vibe users and I don't notice that any of you seem to have trouble with the polish being left behind on the rocks. Is there a trick to avoiding that? Does the rock have to be "near perfect" before going in the vibe so that you don't have this problem? I may give up my vibe at this point as I really don't like the "dirty" look on the rocks with the polish left behind. Any good advice to keep me going with this piece of equipment?  Bonnie |
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Post by Bikerrandy on Jun 9, 2009 20:25:10 GMT -5
For rough rock that's not pre-grinded or pre-shaped, sometimes you have to rinse the rocks after the first stage and run them in fresh coarse grit for a couple more days, and repeat if there are still pits. The rocks should be free from all pits before continuing to the fine grit stage.
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jun 10, 2009 9:01:44 GMT -5
Randy, thank you for your input. If I understand your comments, you're referring to those rocks which have gone through a rotary process prior to the vibe? I know you said in your instructions that you never run the vibe with coarse grit. If I am understanding you, then to clarify, this batch of rocks which went into the vibe had spent about six weeks total in the rotaries. Maybe 3 weeks in coarse, then 2nd stage, then pre-polish. I know I read in some of your posts that the vibe will not do a great deal of shaping, and that's where the rotaries come in. For my personal preference, I love the shaping/rounding/smoothing down which the rotary does, that's part of the thrill of this for me, so I don't want to give up my rotaries. I don't do a lot of pre-shaping or cutting into slabs, etc. I had hoped, in having the vibe, that I could use the rotaries for the first two stages, then move to the vibe for pre-polish and polish. But I'm not sure this is a great idea for me just due to my preferences in tumbling. I've enclosed a pic of a couple of the rocks which came out of the vibe, I hope you can see the "characteristics" I was talking about in that the upper rock has some natural indentations which I liked and wanted to keep, but those filled with polish compound. The lower rock is one which has a natural crease shape, again I liked this, but the crease filled with compound. So would you say, in your opinion, that these kinds of rocks are not good candidates for the vibe, and should finish out in the rotary? I did have a couple of small slabs in that vibe batch which I cut on the wet saw, and those did turn out really well, without the problems these rocks have. So I guess I'm trying to understand the best use for the vibe, and perhaps I'm being dense here, but is the vibe a better machine for rocks which have been cut or shaped, etc? Bonnie - PS - The vibe DOES do a wonderful job of polishing. |
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Post by 150FromFundy on Jun 10, 2009 11:04:08 GMT -5
I'm new to the vibe tumbler as well, but here's my two cents worth.
The vibe can not shape rocks, nor can it remove any indentations deeper than minor scratches, nor can it grind out pits. If you want a perfect polish on a perfect stone, the stone must be near perfect before going into the vibe.
A vibe will never replace a rotary tumbler if you are polishing rough rock. A vibe will only increase the rate of finishing (polishing) prepared rock. All shaping and grinding must be done in a rotary tumbler, or by another means.
If you are slabbing rock, cutting preforms, and pre-grinding or beveling edges, a vibe is unbeatable for quality of shine and rate of production. If you are working with rough rock, you still need weeks (or months) in a rotary tumbler to prepare the rough rock for the vibe.
Most people start with a simple rotary tumbler to get a feel for the hobby. If they get kooked (like most of us) a vibe is the next natural progression after you have bought the wet tile saw, or course.
150FromFundy
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jun 10, 2009 11:37:42 GMT -5
150fromFundy, thank you so much for you comments. You answered my questions very well and gave me needed insight into the whole vibe practice. I just don't know if I'm the "vibe type" ;D for lack of a better term. I don't do much cutting, or shaping, or beveling, etc., so it seems for my own personal uses, a rotary is probably the best equipment for me. I do have two of those, a Thumler AR2 and a Lortone 33B, and I've been very happy with my stones coming out of those. I do have a wet tile saw, but I don't use it as much as I thought I would.
I don't think I'll totally give up on the vibe, but rather keep it for the future when I may find myself doing more cutting or pre-shaping, etc. I was very impressed with the speed and the polish on the stones I did do, but some stones just have characteristics which I think only add to their beauty, and for those stones, the vibe, as evidenced by my pics was not a good choice for finishing.
Bonnie
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catskillrocks
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2008
Posts: 1,270
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Post by catskillrocks on Jun 10, 2009 20:23:27 GMT -5
Hi Bonnie. I recall that Amber (Bejewelme) has some sort of intense high pressure gadget that should get rid of all that residue polish. I'm not sure where in the posts it is mentioned, but maybe contacting her will get you more info. Good luck,
Don
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Saskrock
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since October 2007
Posts: 1,852
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Post by Saskrock on Jun 11, 2009 0:31:16 GMT -5
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Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Jun 11, 2009 7:05:15 GMT -5
Don't give up on the vibe: there is a definite learning curve. Unlike Randy, I run my rocks through all steps in the vibe after completing the coarse grind in a rotary. This saves considerable time. So far, I have only tumbled rocks, not preforms, slabs, etc. A couple of other comments. Six days in polish is an awfully long time in a vibe. You should be able to get the same shine in 24-48 hrs. Ditto on the burnish: 4 hrs is usually sufficient. Unlike the previous steps, you can use a lot of water with the burnish. If you don't want to spend the money on the dry cleaning sprayer, you can make a pressure sprayer following the advice here: tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Minerals/Homemade.shtmlI'm sure the dry cleaning sprayer is better, but the one above works well enough for me. The key, as Randy mentioned, is that you need to grind out all those pits before polishing. I think you'd have similar problems in a rotary with pitted rock. I know I used to before I switched to the vibe. One more tip: small filler will get into indentations better. Try filling about 1/3 of your load with the small ceramic pellets. www.therockshed.com/grit2.htmlHope this helps, Chuck |
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jun 11, 2009 13:14:44 GMT -5
Don and Chuck, thank you both for your excellent input, I do appreciate it. Don I took a look at the cleaner for $60 and thought that looked real handy, I may end up getting that. I also sent the link for the homemade one to my husband to see if he thought he could put something like that together. I'd love to be able to use the vibe, but retain some of the characteristics I really like in some of the rocks. Chuck, I'm taking your advice to heart. I'm not going to give up the vibe, I'm just going to try to figure out what I did wrong. It was the very first time using the vibe, and to be honest, I'm feel I'm just getting the hang of the rotaries. I've only been doing this since Jan of this year, so perhaps going to the vibe at this point was not in my best interest When I do feel confident about working with the vibe again, I'll follow your advice and shorten the time in the vibe. I found your comment about that interesting because I did check the rocks at 2-3 days and thought they looked very polished. I guess I just need to remember that my first batch in the rotary was not too hot either ..  I may have set higher expectations of myself with this and ended up disappointed. Again, thank you for your comments and your encouragement. Bonnie |
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jun 11, 2009 13:17:58 GMT -5
One more tip: small filler will get into indentations better. Try filling about 1/3 of your load with the small ceramic pellets. www.therockshed.com/grit2.htmlHope this helps, Chuck Chuck, I just zipped over to The Rock Shed to take a look at these and I have to say, it's really dangerous to my checkbook to visit Shawn's store.. ;D |
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docharber
has rocks in the head
Member since October 2008
Posts: 716
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Post by docharber on Jun 11, 2009 19:11:50 GMT -5
Hi Bonnie-
Ditto the above. I find some of the highlighted cracks and pits are more of a problem with the vibe and under magnification, you can see what has happened. Some of the whiteness is not polish but the finely splintered edges of cracks that the vibe is more l;ikely to create. You can aid the rinsability of the polish by adding a few drops of dishwashing liquid to the bowl. Make sure the polishing slurry is nice and thin- like milk, so you can see the patterns in the rocks without wiping it away. Adding small filler, like tiny polished pebbles, ceramic media, or plastic pellets helps cushion the rocks and avoid much of the splintering. I learned all this the hard way when I first got muy vibe. Other than the cracks, you have a really good polish there. With the cushioning filler added, they'll turn out better, guaranteed.
Mark H.
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jun 12, 2009 15:49:09 GMT -5
Mark, thank you so much for your input and advice also. Gosh, I never thought of the white markings being a splinter rather than polish, but that certainly makes sense. With all the encouragement you have all offered, I'm going to try another batch in the vibe, but I'll go in better prepared this next time. I'm going to order some ceramic pieces from Shawn, and I'll also be more critical about the rocks which make it to the vibe. I'm so grateful for all of your comments and time, I felt as though I may never get back to using the vibe again, but I think I'll give it another go. I think I may have let myself get discouraged too easily because I didn't really understand the differences in the material which was "ready for a vibe" vs that which is ready for a rotary. Perhaps the rotaries are a little more forgiving.
Thank you again!
Bonnie
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Post by Michael John on Jun 12, 2009 20:13:59 GMT -5
Bonnie, you just have to be aware of the "optimum usage" for each machine.
Using your saw on your rough first, you can grind sharp edges off and smooth-out some pits. About an hour spent at the saw will greatly reduce the time needed for the rough stage, and you'll get rid of some pits with your saw that rough tumbling would not have.
Once your stones have been prepped on the saw, put them in your rotaries for the rough stage. When you take the stones out for inspection and recharge, take the stones out that are ready for the next step (vibe), but continue with the rough step for those that still need it. Once you've removed enough that are ready from both rotaries, you can condense into one rotary and start a new batch of rough in the other. After the rough stage, ALL stones continue into the vibe ... you no longer need to use the rotaries for anything but the rough stage. You just keep the whole cycle always moving. Saw > rough in rotary > vibe. If you don't prep your rough stones on the saw first, the rough stage will take a long time and your vibe will be empty most of the time. If you STILL find that your vibe is free for quite a while waiting for material to come out of the rotaries, you could cut preforms and run them in the vibe during those times.
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jun 13, 2009 20:14:53 GMT -5
Michael John, again appreciation for your input and wisdom! I had actually wondered how you kept yourself in rocks when the vibe does such a quick job of finishing them. I know many of my rocks go through the coarse grind in rotary for three plus weeks at least, and I could see myself with nothing in the vibe, but four barrels full of rough being processed. So this gives me some good ideas on how to keep the vibe busy. I also appreciate your comments on making more use of the wet saw, I know my husband will appreciate it as well as he's been working so hard to get me over my "fear" of that thing. I have to be honest, I've not yet found a comfort level in working with that saw, even though he's shown me time and again that I won't lose my fingers in it. ;D My husband just can go to town with that saw, but he has a garage full of saws, so he's not fearful of power tools, whereas I've always been someone who tends to head the other direction when power tools are running (I know .. I'm a wuss..) So that's the real reason I haven't used it as much as I thought I would. But I'm going to work on finding a comfort level with it so that I can utilize it more. I can certainly see that I'll need it if I intend to process more rocks through the vibe. From what little I have worked with it, it does make short work of bad spots on rocks. Again, thank you so much for your time and insights. Bonnie |
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Post by Michael John on Jun 13, 2009 21:14:40 GMT -5
Anyone who has worked with "normal" saws can testify that tile saws are a breath of fresh air due to the extremely low danger factor. The feeling of accidentally jamming your hand into a spinning blade and not being hurt is something that a lot of folks here have experienced, and although it always startles you, it always makes you grin, too. It's just one of those things that never ceases to amaze I guess. As far as YOUR personal comfort level, well, unless possibly messing-up your manicure would be a major catastrophe, your fears are totally unfounded. Don't worry, once you've accidentally jammed your hand into the blade a few times, you WILL lose that fear.
Yeah, once you get your "stride", working your machines together efficiently, you'll be amazed at how much finished product you can bust-out on a continuous basis. Your piles of rough will start to dwindle quickly! If you start selling your finished work, keep record of what you offered for sale, what sold from that, and what didn't. That'll give you a good idea of what will sell well for you and what won't, then you can base your future rough stone purchases accordingly, to some degree.
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firstrune
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2009
Posts: 156
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Post by firstrune on Jun 14, 2009 19:35:23 GMT -5
Michael John, again you've been very generous with your encouragement, enough so that I actually spent some time this afternoon using the wet saw. My husband was in attendance and he's being very patient with me. I cannot deceive you and tell you that I walked away with my courage and confidence with the whole process up several levels .. I still tend to jump each time that blade comes too close to my fingers, but I know that the only way I'm going to learn confidence and overcome my fears with it is to use it and then use it some more. I did get a rock "bound" as my husband called it and it kind of jumped off the saw and I think ended up in some other county. I lived through that experience, so that's a good step toward learning to be more comfortable with the saw. I just cannot comprehend that a blade which can cut rock will not cut off five fingers in 5 seconds. Goes against everything in the natural world somehow. Bonnie |
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) After 6 days in polish (using AO from The Rock Shed) I then ran them in a Borax burnish for 48 hours. At the end of this, I was very happy with the shine the vibe seemed to accomplish, but it did "eat up" some of my rocks (a pretty Banded Amethyst I had babied through the rotaries) but what I was even more disappointed with was the amount of polish which it left embedded in the rocks. I have tried everything to get that out and nothing has worked. In some cases the rocks probably weren't perfect, and had some small pits, in other cases these were rocks which were marred naturally with indentations and I liked them that way. I've read several posts here from the dedicated vibe users and I don't notice that any of you seem to have trouble with the polish being left behind on the rocks. Is there a trick to avoiding that? Does the rock have to be "near perfect" before going in the vibe so that you don't have this problem? I may give up my vibe at this point as I really don't like the "dirty" look on the rocks with the polish left behind. Any good advice to keep me going with this piece of equipment? 
I may have set higher expectations of myself with this and ended up disappointed. 
