Good Vibrations
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Overanalysis leads to Paralysis
Member since May 2009
Posts: 91
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Post by Good Vibrations on Jul 27, 2009 10:47:17 GMT -5
How dows polish work? In genreal terms, if that's possible, does it work in the same manner as grit, but to such a fine degree that the rocks turn shiny? Or does it actually put an external coating of shine on the rocks as in the way nail polish does? My curiosity won't go away about this, & I haven't been able to locate the answer. Thanks, Erica
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rallyrocks
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2005
Posts: 1,507
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Post by rallyrocks on Jul 27, 2009 11:55:40 GMT -5
I think the general consensus is that it works more like your first proposal- just super fine grit that leaves nearly invisible scratches, but some researchers have indicated that there could be something else going on at the molecular level.
It clearly is not a "coating" like nail polish, which is a comparatively thick coating of a foreign substance, but some have hinted that silica molecules may be getting pulled out of the host rock to form an infinitesimally thin layer that is the "shine".
I expect a person could do their PhD on the subject and still not have a definitive answer.
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Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Jul 27, 2009 11:56:56 GMT -5
Erica,
You've asked an excellent question. My understanding is that nobody quite knows. There are several theories (the coating one is a new one to me), but it's a bit mysterious because the polishes are generally softer than the stones being polished (so it shouldn't work at all). Whatever is happening, it's a little counter-intuitive.
The two theories I've come across most frequently are: 1. smaller scratches, like the other abrasives (but again, there's the question of hardness) 2. something to do with the polish causing enough heat from friction to smooth the stone (which makes very little sense because the tumblers do not get warm); I could see how one might come to this conclusion polishing on a pad, though
Maybe it's just removing any traces of the grit and the grit has actually done the work? You could test that by skipping the polish step and going straight to burnish. I've been meaning to test this myself, just haven't gotten around to it. I have a lot of stones that have a nice shine after AO1000 but that have been burnished but not polished. I've been meaning to run them with polish and see if I get a better shine.
I'll post my results if/when I do it.
Chuck
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rallyrocks
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2005
Posts: 1,507
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Post by rallyrocks on Jul 27, 2009 12:52:29 GMT -5
Good article from Lapidary Journal on the subject; www.lapidaryjournal.com/feature/nov05.cfmand it is written by a PhD, like I said he doesn't have "the" answer, although it is considerably better documented and more authoritative than any of our ramblings here...
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Gem'n I
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since March 2008
Posts: 980
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Post by Gem'n I on Jul 27, 2009 13:57:03 GMT -5
Very interesting article in "LJ"....I just know there is some case that can be made in saying it is a process that produces surface conditions that look pleasing to the eye...grinding then burnishing and finally polishing is a constant. My question as an add on to what Erica asks would be..."Could you ever polish a stone long enough to produce a "shine" without ever having introduced any grinding or burnishing " Wow my head hurts!!! Larry
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rollingstone
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since July 2009
Posts: 236
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Post by rollingstone on Jul 27, 2009 14:57:54 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I believe polish works just by making the imperfections on the rock surface so fine and the surface so smooth that the rocks "shines". I think it is an abrasive process. You can see the effect with a 10X loupe. If you remove stones at various times through the polish stage, you can watch the imperfections in the stones surface become finer and finer, and the stone become shinier and shinier. I use a loupe to determine when the rocks are truly "done". To me, it is when the imperfections are no longer visible in a 10X loupe, which means they are 10X finer than your eye can detect. I suppose if you used a 20X or 30X loupe you could follow the polish process even further, though I don't know if you could actually remove the imperfections seen under 30X magnification. In practical terms, even when the "scratches" are gone under a 10X loupe there are other imperfections visible, such as fine cracks or fine pits or blemishes that you can never remove.
People usually refer to finer grits and polishes removing "scratches" from the previous stages. Seen under magnification, they aren't actually scratches, more like just an uneven surface, or millions of tiny pits side by side. Each successive grit makes the pits a bit smaller. The polish stage is no different I think. Well, one difference is that polishes like aluminum oxide tend to become rounded, like little ball-bearings, which helps smooth the surface, as opposed to silicon carbide grit which fractures into jagged pieces as it breaks down, which keep on cutting. Aluminum oxide has a mohs hardness of 9.0, so it is harder than almost any rock you will be polishing (which are generally mohs 7 or softer). My two cents. -Don
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docharber
has rocks in the head
Member since October 2008
Posts: 716
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Post by docharber on Jul 27, 2009 22:14:02 GMT -5
Good article. I'm a believer in the surface flow theory. We see something like this when a skate blade passes over ice. The compressive force of the blade liquefies the ice even without heating it to a supercooled fluid state that can floww. When the water forms it expands as well to fill any surface imperfection in the "cut" made by the blade. I think burnishing works in a similar way.
Mark H.
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Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Jul 28, 2009 8:32:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the post Rally!
And I agree with Don's view of the "scratches" as actually being pits. I've looked at them under a loupe, too and they look like a matte surface, or sort of like a golf ball. The pits get smaller as you go.
Chuck
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Good Vibrations
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Overanalysis leads to Paralysis
Member since May 2009
Posts: 91
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Post by Good Vibrations on Jul 28, 2009 10:11:37 GMT -5
Thanks so much for the info! I just read the LJ article, and I think resulting shine from polishing a particular stone could be a result of any or all of the three processes mentioned. Go figure. It would be easier to predict the polish outcomes of different stones if only one process was involved! Interesting part about the relation between grit particle size and the "plastic zone" of a particluar stone.
Two things I am going to do today: 1. Look at various stones that are at different stages in the tumbling process (after 120/220, after 500) through magnification, and 2. Go find a mesh to micron conversion chart.
Thanks for all the input on the subject! I think it's interesting. ~Erica
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SirRoxalot
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since October 2003
Posts: 790
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Post by SirRoxalot on Jul 28, 2009 16:51:31 GMT -5
The Bielby, surface-flow theory is easily debunked, the tumbling or grinding process does not produce the temperatures required to melt the material... thousands of degrees. Pretty easy to prove at home.
Seems pretty simple to me that finer grits produce finer scratches, with the flour-sized particles of polish rendering scratches too fine for our eyes to see.
Faceters do see some curious things, but perhaps much can be explained by either unscientific testing ore the atomic structure of crystalline solids, that behave nothing like glass.
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rallyrocks
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2005
Posts: 1,507
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Post by rallyrocks on Jul 28, 2009 17:19:59 GMT -5
The Bielby, surface-flow theory is easily debunked, the tumbling or grinding process does not produce the temperatures required to melt the material... thousands of degrees. Pretty easy to prove at home. If you read the rest of the article you would see that Bielby hasn't been exactly "debunked" and that flow at a molecular level does not require the same heating that melting does ; "Beilby may have been partly correct, in that he believed that the material flowed on the surface. By closer examination of the mechanics of fracture and plasticity, researchers today do not believe that the material actually melts but simply behaves plastically." "Another problem with the Beilby theory was the belief that the surface somehow melted and flowed into place. We now believe that the surface does not really melt but instead flows plastically, much like clay flows under the strain of the artist's hands."
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