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Post by stonesthatrock on Sept 10, 2009 14:08:05 GMT -5
i didn't get no agates..................... rally kept mine lmao
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Wolfden
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2007
Posts: 1,368
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Post by Wolfden on Sept 10, 2009 14:21:25 GMT -5
+ 1 on the '' I didnt get no agates '' where' mine dang it ?? lol
Wolf
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Post by deb193redux on Sept 10, 2009 15:23:16 GMT -5
I think as long as discussion is civil, it is appropriate. I think the boundaries of sharing vs advertising and hobby vs profession need frank discussion to insure good boundaries and good comportment.
I think it is incumbent on those with a commercial interest to tolerate the civil scrutiny of those who are freely sharing, trading, helping, and giving. RTH may be free to join, but it is not free. We do work when we build this space with our postings and interactions. We even do work when we view pages with other's postings. Those ads we all ignore allow ProBoards to operate their business, and allow Mark to offer this board. If we are "doing the work" we should get our expected payment. If I expect to receive freely given feedback and tips; if I expect to obtain interactions with other enthusiasts and hobbyists, but I instead get self-promotion, then I am not getting my proper wages.
Some advertising and self-promotion can coexist with the spirit of this board. It is mostly a matter of boundaries and comportment. Besides, not every business makes money, some are a sideline and the whole "hobbyist" thing gets confusing. I think patagonianstar has comported themselves fairly well. Whether it is profitable or not, there is a lot of money in their operation. I also think nobody should be obliged to sell or trade anything they do not care to sell. When I began collecting, I tried to trade better than I got. I will still do that face to face, but lately have become much more of a hoarder. I once did regular contests with slabs and shipping costs that set me back a few dollars - lately I have been too busy.
But we should not pretend that patagonianstar joined this board for anything other than self-promotion. It is polite and friendly and not obnoxious - but it is promotion 101 right out of a textbook on Internet marketing. The pictures are pretty and the enthusiasm seems genuine. But, their initial presentation was not "Hi folks I sell Patagonian agates", but rather, "Hey I like to collect and cut and polish and here are some pics of my collection" - very hobbyist sounding. But, a very short time later there was a posting about the show in Tuscon and I realized their initial presentation had been a bit disingenuous. Hobbyists do not travel to other continents and pay booth fees at the biggest show of the year; and collection and inventory are two different concepts.
Later there was a posting about "hoping to see folks at the World of Agate show". I posted that I was going and would look them up. I was not planning to buy half-nodules. (I don't collect them and would rather 200lbs of lapidary rough than one $700 half-nodule). But I was expecting a pleasant RTH face-2-face meeting. I thought maybe I would get a tour of the booth and be educated to a few of the finer points about these agates. What I got when I introduced myself as deb193 from RTH (someone who had just weeks earlier posted in their thread.) was, "Oh. OK. Hi. Let me know if there is anything in the case I can show you".
In hindsight I saw that the World of Agate posting had not been about capitalizing on the opportunity to meet other RTH'ers, but rather to promote patagonianstar presence at the show.
Maybe it was just bad timing that day, maybe I should have asked for that tour. Who knows. Things felt real odd, and I just walked away.
So if someone is getting free advertising in a place whose attractiveness I help build with my pictures and postings, perhaps the price they pay is the occasional scrutiny of their motives. Of course, they should expect polite and civil scrutiny, but should not expect to be exempt from scrutiny.
IMHO the only thing unfortunate is the labeling of civil discourse as "tasteless"
Some remarks about why clearly it made no sense to sell rough were in-fact not clear to other members. Discussion ensued. More information about the disposition of low grade material helped clarify things. Still, when explaining how clearly one's high-end hand specimen trade is the only thing that makes sense, please do not get defensive if someone suggests that the argument does not exactly hold up in a crowd like RTH. Be a little more honest that there is a commercial interest at stake.
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Post by Toad on Sept 10, 2009 15:33:13 GMT -5
Well said, Daniel. Patagonia can obviously do whatever they like with their rocks, but we can also put out our opinions as well - we're just finding stuff out and expressing our thoughts.
Not nearly as elegant as what you said, but I agree with you.
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Wolfden
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2007
Posts: 1,368
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Post by Wolfden on Sept 10, 2009 15:49:42 GMT -5
.. VERY well put Daniel
Wolf
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Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Sept 10, 2009 22:36:59 GMT -5
While I agree with much of what Daniel has to say, I would not try to guess at someone else's motivation for what they do. Maybe he's right on target. Maybe patagoniastar are really a pair of wealthy hobbyists who can afford to travel to the big shows and do so to share the beauty of their finds with the world. On the other hand, time and travel to collect rough, and travel to the shows are expensive, and there is always the question of what the market will bear. (Seen what real Fairburns go for lately?) I do recall a post wherein they said that they gave rocks to someone here in the states and trusted that he would pay them, but never did. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=28772&page=1forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?board=Vendors&action=display&thread=27277&page=1In the end, they're their rocks and they can do with them as they see fit. I enjoy the posts of the beautiful agates, but I'll never buy one (I firmly believe in collecting my own rocks, or perhaps trading with others). Chuck
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Post by stonesthatrock on Sept 11, 2009 10:38:31 GMT -5
Daniel i think you just said it all.
mary ann
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jimrbto
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since April 2007
Posts: 94
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Post by jimrbto on Sept 12, 2009 20:44:37 GMT -5
As Charlie Brown would say "GOOD GRIEF"!! What is this - bash Ricardo and Claudia day? It has been a long time since I witnessed such petty behavior in adults (?). Seems like all of you would have everyone believe that you still have, in your collection, every rock you ever picked up and of course NEVER threw one away, or that you don't have preferences in the material you want to keep or cut further. Or that every dealer at every show should automatically know who you are and welcome you with open arms? Get real! You remind me of all the newspaper ads that say "Give us your unwanted car" "Donate your car", "We want your car", "We need your old car"! A couple years ago I contacted seven (7), count them, ---seven of these agencies and offered to give them a Ford in near mint condition but it did have a lot of miles on it, 160K. When push came to shove I could not give that car away, every one of those worthy agencies told me the car was TOO OLD. It was nine years old. Guess they want only new cars! You all complain about the "reject" agates but none of you have actually seen any of them so how can you cry that they can still make good cabs? I believe you are like all the charity organizations begging for cars. You want the cream of the crop for nothing. I don't know th Bernie's and have never been to a show where they were presenting their product, I can't afford to go that far. But I do believe you are unfairly judging them for conducting business/hobby as they see fit. Is anyone here condemning any of you for doing the same thing?
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rallyrocks
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since November 2005
Posts: 1,507
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Post by rallyrocks on Sept 14, 2009 19:22:20 GMT -5
I agree- some folks are getting way out of hand here, there is nothing I've read anywhere that states that hobbyists aren't allowed to also sell their goods- heck if that were a rule I bet 70% of the people on this board would have to have to quit calling themselves hobbyists.
I think Claudia and Ricardo have always been forthcoming and honest in their dealings, and exporting stones from a country like Argentina is a LOT more complicated than anyone here even has a clue about.
The fact that they have made the trip to Tucson and Wisconsin a time or two is no reason to rip on them, hidden among the tons of material they collect are pieces that occasionally turn out to be highly valuable museum-grade specimens, and when they show up at shows, that is what they bring to offer and they price them accordingly.
What gets left at home are the "rejects" and those that they don't want to part with, can't blame them for that- after all isn't that what all of us do?.
I think there are probably two sides to the reason they choose not to sell rough- 1) as stated, there is a high probability that a buyer can be disappointed with what lies inside, and 2) unstated, but probably just as big a factor is that they don't want to spend the considerable expense and hardship of traveling to the wilderness in Patgonia, collecting hundreds of pounds of unknown "stuff" and later finding out they sent off a multi-thousand dollar valued museum piece to someone whose intention is to bash it with a hammer and toss the pieces in a tumbler.
A little respect is in order here folks, I don't see why anyone here feels like the Birnie's owe them anything at all, if you want to own some of their high grade rocks, go to their room at Tucson and be prepared to pony up.
If you want to go prospecting for Patagonian agate, I think several airlines will be glad to fly you to Buenos Aires, where you can rent a jeep, load up with supplies, and head out- heck I'd bet Ricardo and Claudia might even be willing to point you to some of their favorite collecting spots, which is more than can be said for several members on here.
But for crying out loud, don't expect people you don't know to go out of their way to send you stuff that they might want to keep, that's just silly.
And I do still have one or two pieces that nobody wanted from the "B-grade" batch they sent me a couple years back- the cost of just shipping it was not cheap- so I'll want that back, along with my shipping costs to you- in exchange for sending you a rock, just PM me.
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Post by deb193redux on Sept 14, 2009 21:48:31 GMT -5
...Or that every dealer at every show should automatically know who you are and welcome you with open arms? Get real! ... I think jibrbrto has no idea what he is talking about, has some used car issues, and has gone out of his way to twist my testimony and put words (expectations?) in my mouth. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?board=orgatrip&action=display&thread=23968Check out MY thread where they posted twice that they were looking forward to seeing me. I had every reason to expect a warm hello and a little chit-chat.
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jimrbto
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since April 2007
Posts: 94
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Post by jimrbto on Sept 15, 2009 16:28:14 GMT -5
Deb Sorry, but when I posted the other day it was an unusual day here, high humidity and my crystal ball was all fogged up so I was unable to read your mind and see that I was supposed to go back to a post you made in June and read it. Well, since you pointed out the error of my ways I went back and looked at it. You should apologize to everyone here for stretching the truth again. Ricardo/Claudia did post twice but mentioned a meeting only once. No, I don't have a used car issue- I gave the car to a family that could not afford one. LMAO Further- reading your post (again) back in June I can see that you are so inflated with your own importance that you can't read and YES, I stilll think you are a whiner.
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Post by deb193redux on Sept 18, 2009 18:01:00 GMT -5
Deb Sorry, but when I posted the other day it was an unusual day here, high humidity and my crystal ball was all fogged up so I was unable to read your mind and see that I was supposed to go back to a post you made in June and read it. Well, since you pointed out the error of my ways I went back and looked at it. You should apologize to everyone here for stretching the truth again. Ricardo/Claudia did post twice but mentioned a meeting only once. No, I don't have a used car issue- I gave the car to a family that could not afford one. LMAO Further- reading your post (again) back in June I can see that you are so inflated with your own importance that you can't read and YES, I stilll think you are a whiner. you should have stopped at sorry. I had no expectatiopn you would go back to read such an old post, that is why I explained the circumstances in this thread. I only called up the old post after you suggested I wanted every vendor to know who I was. You are just plain creepy.
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Post by deb193redux on Sept 18, 2009 18:53:13 GMT -5
.... The other thing is the issue about deb193 redux : In your post you are in a way implying that we have been rude to you. This has not been our intention , but we cannot keep in mind all the nick names –not even the names- of every person who visits our booth... In Fairs and exhibitions , we are not known because of our rudeness , but exactly for the opposite. Same goes for Forums. Maybe now , we will be known because of our “weak” memory. Nota bene : If you were REALLY interested you should have asked! Maybe you weren´t the only one at our booth at that precise moment... I can recall that Weis Museum was pretty crowded at all times. .... I agree that if I had compelling questions about the agates I should have asked. I agree that if I was truly insistent on chatting with other RTH members I could have made repeated attempts at conversation. I do note well, and had so noted originally. I would not say, and did not say, that you were rude to me. I think a degree of indifference is as strong a case as you can make based on my account. If I had serious concerns about "rudeness" I would have expressed them that day, or contacted you later. I was simply noting the reception I got at Weiss show as one factor, along with the timing of membership and postings, that informed my conviction that one strong motivation for your membership here was self-promotion. I think my account of events at the Weiss show was given undue weight in this discussion because I had to defend myself against jib-whatsits malicious mischaracterizations. I believe I have gone out of my way to clearly state that such a motivation is not in and of itself a bad thing; that your efforts seem low-key and not bothersome, and further that the pictures you post (for whatever reason) are pretty and enjoyable. I think I also made a fair effort to suggest that there may have been mitigating circumstances at the Weiss show. For example I speculated that the one of you posting and the one of you I spoke with may not have been the same one. (losing the joint signature might be a good idea). It has also occurred to me that perhaps saying "RTH rock board" instead of "Rock Tumbling Hobby Forum" may have intersected with language issues to produce the situation. Finally, I acknowledged that I did not pres the matter at the time. The point was not that you had been rude, but that your behavior had not been consistent with the eagerness to see other RTH members that you expressed in our online conversation. Simply that. For what it is worth, I waited until late afternoon when there was only one other person at your booth, and when this person was not engaged in conversation. I stand by my assessment that a sincere interest in meeting other RTH members just for the sake of meeting, would have elicited a warmer response. So all I have said in this thread is that you are a member with commercial interests, and I state my conviction that you have interests in self-promotion via RTH. I have not said that this was your only interest in RTH. I have in no way condemned you for your self-promotion activities. Further, I have complemented the good comportment you display here. I also say, once again, that nobody should feel obliged to sell or trade anything they do not want to sell. I also said that you had every expectation that questions, when raised, should be in a civil and respectful manner. Whether it is a livelihood or something less, when income gets involved, some of the character of the usual RTH hobbyist to hobbyist relations can change. I stand by my conviction that frank and civil discussion of these issues is a good thing for RTH.
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jimrbto
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since April 2007
Posts: 94
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Post by jimrbto on Sept 19, 2009 19:59:09 GMT -5
not worth the bother.
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SirRoxalot
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since October 2003
Posts: 790
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Post by SirRoxalot on Sept 23, 2009 0:01:28 GMT -5
In case anybody is still wondering why they don't sell uncut agates, it's because they'd charge $1,000 a pound and you'd have a heart attack if your order was all duds. Even if they sold rough for half the price of cut and polished halves, it would be absurd. I don't care how long the drive is... even the finest quartzes, mooka, tiger iron, and other jaspers, from the remote back country of Australia, don't fetch such hilarious prices. Heck, somebody should run the numbers and see how they compare to facet-grade amethyst... they should be selling their agates by the carat!
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Post by deb193redux on Sept 23, 2009 10:18:08 GMT -5
Well deb193redux, it´s time to put a full stop here. Really don´t have the time , interest or patience to read or argue with you. Ricardo & Claudia Birnie Argentina Well, I would say that this is the 1st rude thing you have done. When I explain that I was not accusing you of rudeness, and clarify why the encounter at Weiss was even mentioned, and once again reiterate all your good points (e.g., good comportment, interesting pictures ...), you declare that we are having an argument. You imply exasperation by referring to "patience." With the exception of explaining how/why I perceive one of your major motivations for being here to be self-promotion (which I do not condemn), I have defended you and your prerogatives on RTH in every way. It appears that just because I mention self-promotion, I am somehow the enemy.
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Post by catmandewe on Sept 23, 2009 13:14:14 GMT -5
I really enjoy looking at your pictures Ricardo and Claudia, both of the agates and of the country side. I hope you guys don't stop posting them. As for self promotion, I have never once heard them try to promote selling these here. The only thing remotely close was they said they would have a room in Tuscon and again that they would be at the Agate show, but never do they try to sell here.
I think this thread has somehow gotten grossly blown out of proportion and turned into a mudfest which is not what it should have become.
I usually stay out of threads like this, but thats my opinion and I felt I needed to say it.
Have a great day everyone................Tony
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Post by deb193redux on Sept 23, 2009 15:51:39 GMT -5
It should be obvious by now that I don't disagree with Tony's statements about "trying to sell agates here" - this would all be in what I mean by good comportment, and not-obnoxious, and well-behaved ... and any other positive opinions I have offered.
I too hope that postings of nice agates and field trips do not stop - this would be consistent with the number of times that I stated the pictures were pretty, or interesting, or other ways I noted their value.
But self-promotion is not defined only by overt hawking as Tony suggests. Nor is it a bad thing, as some seem to think I am implying. Still most of us know folks who have joined an organization or a church not strictly because of the faith or the organizations purpose, but because it is also good networking.
My only point was that when income and self-promotion are in the picture, and the forum is a hobbyist-centered forum, some civil discussion of where people are coming from is not out of bounds. I did not start this thread, nor did I question the price of the agates. Only after it was suggested that the very questioning of positions was tasteless, did I enter the thread; and while stressing the need for civility, I shared my view that there did seem to be a discernable pattern of well behaved self-promotion.
Finally, I too agree that some sort of mudfest has started. But I see all the mud flung at me. I defended and praised Ricardo and only noted that I did see some reason why the thread might have begun. Yet jimrbto moves beyond the issues and attacks my character, calling me a whiner, and saying something about inflated self-importance. I also think Ricardo's treatment of me has gotten quite rude, even though I civilly attempted to clarify every point he raised.
It may be best that this thread dies. But as long as the last word involves some mis-characterization of my position, or puts words into my mouth, it will not be the last word.
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Post by catmandewe on Sept 23, 2009 17:52:51 GMT -5
It may be best that this thread dies. But as long as the last word involves some mis-characterization of my position, or puts words into my mouth, it will not be the last word. I fail to see where anything I said mis-characterized your position or put words into your mouth. Seems to me you are reading too much into this, nothing I said was aimed at you, just at this thread. People are getting a little too touchy here! Tony
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