raider30
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2009
Posts: 18
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Post by raider30 on Dec 23, 2009 18:15:43 GMT -5
Greetings all, Let me say that I am brand new to this hobby though I am excited about it. It started around Halloween when the family and I went to a 'Pumpkin Patch' where they had a 'mining' setup. You could purchase bags of dirt with either rocks or fossils in it. Then you went to the sluice and used a screen to find out what you had hiding in the bags. While it was for my kids, I found I was about as excited as they were with the stuff they were finding.(the bags had amethyst, adventurine, jasper, agates, emeralds, rubies, citrines, various quartz types, and a bunch of other stuff) Really they held quite a bit of material. I made the comment to my wife that I had always thought having a rock tumbler would be fun and wondered what the stones the kids had found would turn out to look like polished up. Fast forward to Christmas. We had an early Christmas this year and low and behold what did I find under the tree but a Raytech Tumble Vibe-5! Needless to say I was pretty excited. Which is what led me to your awesome website. Btw I love the friendliness of the people here on the forums and all the informative posts(which really have only served to bring up lots of questions for me, heh), but especially the pictures of the finished and not-so-finished projects you all are working on. So I've got a lot of questions and probably will have many more in the future. Ok, enough of my rambling I'll try to get right to it now: The equipment I have is the Tumble Vibe-5, a spare bowl, and their stonefinish kit which has silicon carbide grit 100/120, silicon carbide grit 700F, Iolox 50 and Raybrite TL. Questions: 1) With 2 bowls I know that I should have one strictly for the polishing phase(learned that from your website:)) - but do I really need a 3rd bowl instead? I mean can I use the 100/120 and the 700F in the same bowl and use the Iolox and Raybrite in the 2nd bowl? Or can I use the first 3 in bowl one and only the Raybrite in the 2nd bowl? Or a third bowl or, or, or.... 2) For a vibe tumbler is there normally only 2 stages of the grind?(the 100/120 and the 700F) or is that just all this particular kit has? In the future will I likely need another stage in there with some other size of grit? 3) This model holds about 4lbs. I don't have anywhere near 4 lbs of rocks. Is there a minimum amount I can use and still actually get results? Does that minimum change depending on the stage I am at? This leads into question #4. 4) Rather than try the kids rocks right now I thought I'd practice on some other stuff. Being that I'm in Iowa and its currently winter with frozen ground I can't just go pick up rocks off the playground to practice on(plus right now I want something a little more fun to practice on) I thought I would order some rocks from the Rock Shed website. So, how much do I need to order? If it holds up to 4 lbs can I order 1 lb of quartz or do I have to order 3+lbs? If I can order only 1 lb can I split it up into 2 batches so I have more to practice with or again do I have to use the entire pound? I would like to order several different kinds of rocks to try out if possible rather than have to spend my 'rock allowance'(the amount I'm willing to spend when just starting out, hehe) on just one type of rock(ie. 4 lbs of rose quartz). 5) Do I have to use the Raytech stonefinish kits or can I buy something else? I mean when it comes to Silicon Carbide 100/120 is one company pretty much as good as another? 6) Do I have to do everything all at once? I mean once I start a project do I have to push right through or can I do a cycle of grind, rinse the rocks off and set it aside for a week while I go on vacation or something like that? I think that's probably enough questions for you all right now. I would definitely appreciate the help with them. I'm sure your answers will beget more questions so be prepared.  - Raider30 |
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JEFFD
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since December 2004
Posts: 242
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Post by JEFFD on Dec 23, 2009 20:29:49 GMT -5
I remember when I was were you are now.
It isn't rocket science, but there is an art to it.
The more you do the more you learn and modify the way you run your batches.
I run 120/220 - 500 - 1000-polish. You don't have to have 1000. Just run your 700 24 hours, it breaks down.
Not sure about skipping the 500, probably the same, just run your 100/120 a full 24 hours before going to the 700 stage. That will be at least your second day on the 100/120 stage.
The bowl needs to be about 3/4 full. If you run less, the stones tend to get beat up.
A mix of jasper and agate will usually do fine, mixed with rose quartz should do ok.
You are right not to run your treasures on the first load. When you get the hang of it ...then run your goodies. Wished I had known that... I trashed some malachite and azurite with some moss agates.
The Rock Shed has grits in small quanity also the Aluminum Oxide polish from there is very good and the price is good too. Once you get into this hobby, you will be buying larger bags of grit.
I have turned my tumbler off in mid batch for weeks at a time. Just make a note for yourself where you left off....trust me you won't remember.
There are several vibe tumbler people here that crank out fantastic loads of rock.
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agatemaggot
Cave Dweller 
Member since August 2006
Posts: 2,195
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Post by agatemaggot on Dec 23, 2009 20:37:18 GMT -5
Raider,
Got the same problem collecting rock as you do ! I am snowed in on the north end of Waterloo.
The fastest , bestest way of finding LOTS OF QUALITY tumbling material would be to contact Catmandewe, that's Tony out in Idaho.
That's all you need to know about acquiring tumbling material, PROMISE !
Harley
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Post by deb193redux on Dec 23, 2009 20:48:30 GMT -5
Tony has lots of great rough - BUT the Rockshed has it sized and clean. Get a small-med mix. plenty of time later to get larger and rougher material from Tony.
you want that bowl close to 4 lbs, the vibe action is tuned for that weight - but I would have 25% ceramic media.
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Post by catmandewe on Dec 23, 2009 21:43:21 GMT -5
Hey Raider,
You pay for the shipping and I would be happy to fill your first bowl.
Merry Christmas........................Tony
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Post by NatureNut on Dec 23, 2009 21:52:22 GMT -5
Awwww Tony, that's too kind of you! You rock!
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,497
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 24, 2009 14:05:37 GMT -5
In answer to your multi bowl question, I don't think a third bowl is necessary. I often do my coarse grind and find grind in one bowl or barrel ( just clean well between them) and often do prepolish and polish in the second unit. Most important is don't use grinds in the same bowls as polishes because it's pretty darn hard to avoid cross contamination even with a good cleaning....Mel
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Post by deb193redux on Dec 24, 2009 15:44:50 GMT -5
I’d take Tony up on that offer. Nice of him. One advantage of the tumble rough from his bin is going to be the potential variety. Material he has gotten from estate sales, or material he sorted out as “not cabbing grade” is likely to have great variety covering the Northwest and Western states. Who knows what bits and pieces those old rockhounds acquired. Don’t get me wrong, there may also be a lot of plainer agate and jasper, but potentially there will be plume, moss, dendretic, and drusy material that is unlikely to be in the rockshed mix. I’ve only seen a pic of one of Tony’s recent buys, and a few pics on his website, so I can’t say exactly what is there.
But, do yourself a favor and run it in your 2nd or 3rd load when you have your bearings. The rockshed material you were looking at is screened for size and free of matrix. I’ve bought boxes of tumble rough from rockhounds, and from the rockshed. I have bought mine run, saw trimmings, and end cuts. I love them all. But what a lot of rockhounds and cabbers mean by “tumble rough” is “only good for tumbling.” You can pull great tumbles out of that material, but you have to discard some and maybe cut some with a tile saw to remove matrix. You need a little savvy as to what will tumble well. Also a vibe does not round as much or remove lots of matrix near as well as a rotary. I have 3 vibes and I know.
What you’ll get from the rockshed is ready to tumble. Just be disciplined and not order stuff that is too large. Small and medium rocks are the tumbler’s friend. … and use the ceramic media. If you are anything like me, you will quickly tire of batches with about 6 kinds of rock: red jasper, adventurine, rose quartz, Dalmatian jasper, some picture jasper, and some type of agate. That’s when you start to get parcels of tumble rough from miners, rockhounds, and old timers.
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Post by catmandewe on Dec 24, 2009 17:20:00 GMT -5
Daniel is right, you need to run the rough batches through the rotary first to get the rough edges off.
I have a bucket full of rough that has already gone through the first grind and is ready for 220, which is where the vibe excels. I do all my rough in a rotary and then I put them into the vibe to finish them.
I can send you either kind, rough that has already been through rough grind, or rough that still needs the rough grind, your choice.
Merry Christmas................Tony
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raider30
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2009
Posts: 18
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Post by raider30 on Dec 25, 2009 10:00:05 GMT -5
Greetings and Merry Christmas to all of you! Thanks a lot for the comments. As I suspected, more questions have arisen. However, given that it is Christmas morning I'm going to have to hold off until later in the day when family activities slow down a bit. I will definitely take you up on your offer Tony. Though I'd like to ask some additional questions just to make sure I understand what you(and the others) are talking about. This board is a great help and its pretty interesting going back through the old threads, but as usual there never seems to be enough time! Perhaps tonight I'll sit down with a nice Belgian beer and spend an hour browsing. Sounds relaxing enough to me. - Beau aka Raider30 ps: Currently under blizzard conditions, snow still falling, expecting another 5-8 inches! |
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Post by deb193redux on Dec 25, 2009 10:55:36 GMT -5
The blizzard is over here, but it is still snowing off & on. I had to cancel my plans to drive today down to Texas to meet up with family.
Where are you located?
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raider30
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2009
Posts: 18
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Post by raider30 on Dec 27, 2009 9:20:24 GMT -5
The blizzard is over here, but it is still snowing off & on. I had to cancel my plans to drive today down to Texas to meet up with family. Where are you located? I'm up across the river from Omaha, NE on the Iowa side, Council Bluffs. We got a ton of snow here and my driveway is looong. Fortunately my neighbor has a plow service and came over to clear me out or I'd probably still be digging out. There was so much snow he brought over a loader yesterday to finish the job. He won't take anything for the effort either, but needless to say at the end of the season he'll be getting a bottle or two of something nice. We have a couple of nature areas in the vicinity, and this entire area is part of the loess hills, which is a type of soil formation that I believe only appears here and in China. So when spring rolls around I'm kind of excited to go tromping around and seeing if I can find anything interesting. At the suggestion of another poster in a different thread I did pick up the Audubon Society field guild to Rocks and Minerals. Though I haven't really been able to find out what types of rocks we would have around here that might be good to tumble. I've tried searching the web but my search skills are pretty limited. I also tried looking at some geological survey's done by a society in Iowa but frankly I couldn't make heads or tails of them. I really like rocks with color or interesting designs in them so I'm hoping to be able to find something like that so if anyone has any knowledge of what you can find in west central Iowa or within an hours drive or so please clue me in! - Raider30 |
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raider30
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2009
Posts: 18
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Post by raider30 on Dec 27, 2009 9:28:47 GMT -5
Daniel is right, you need to run the rough batches through the rotary first to get the rough edges off. I have a bucket full of rough that has already gone through the first grind and is ready for 220, which is where the vibe excels. I do all my rough in a rotary and then I put them into the vibe to finish them. I can send you either kind, rough that has already been through rough grind, or rough that still needs the rough grind, your choice. Merry Christmas................Tony Greetings, I'm a little confused. What size do you use on your first grind, if the first grind is only getting them ready for 220? Also, the kit that came with my vibe has 100/120 as its lowest(biggest?) grit. If that is the size I have to start with what kind of rocks should I get? Should I purchase some additional heavier duty grit to use all the time or just on the really rough stuff that has lots of edges and pits? If I had rocks as you mentioned above that were ready for 220, would the process then be to use 220, then 100/120, then 700F, pre-polish and finally polish? Or would I leave out one or more of those steps? Thanks again for all the help! - Raider30 |
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raider30
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2009
Posts: 18
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Post by raider30 on Dec 27, 2009 9:41:49 GMT -5
Greetings all,
Ok, as promised I've come up with a few more questions so lets get to it.
1) I've seen the term matrix used in describing rocks. Is that all the junk on the outside of a rock that you really don't want to keep around?(ie. dirt, sharp edges, other rock stuck to it, etc.)
2) Ceramic media - From my understanding this artificial media acts as a carrier for the grit and provides filler. If I have a bowl that holds 4lbs, and as another poster indicated it should be about 3/4 full, does that mean I can have a bowl 1/2 full and the other 1/4 dump in a bunch of ceramic pellets? What about 1/4 full of rocks and the other 1/2 full of pellets? I think that if I have a good mix of rock sizes I don't necessarily need the pellets(right?) but what if I only have say 5 1" pieces of turquoise to tumble. Can I just put those in and fill the entire rest of the bowl with pellets?
2a) Do you use ceramic media in all the stages?(rough grind, grind, pre-polish and polish) If so do you use the same media after washing or is it best to have 2 sets one for the rougher stuff and one for the polish stage?
I know there's more but those are the only ones I've remembered to write down.
Thanks again to all for the help.
- Raider30
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 27, 2009 10:29:23 GMT -5
Yes on all these questions. Only Raytech (as far as I know) uses 100/120 and 700. When you replace look for 120/220 (sometimes called 220 ungraded) and "500F" (500 and finer). Vibe tumblers are fast but don't createt he rounded pebble look so no need for 60/90 grit. The 60/90will wear your bowls out really fast while not rounding the rocks. I'll use it on rare occasion when I have a soft matrix material and want to remove it fast. I check it every two hours. This is with my Mini-Sonic tumblers with thick bowls. Your last post you asked about grit numbers. Bigger numbers are finer. You would not want to go from 220 to 100, etc. Biggest tip with vibe tumbler is damp not wet. If you see water splashing you will settle grit to near the bottom and wear a groove through your bowl. It takes a little practice to master the right water content. If you get it started barely damp just spritz with water as it slows down when slurry thickens.
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Post by deb193redux on Dec 27, 2009 13:52:34 GMT -5
You could take Tony's ready for 220 rocks and start them in 100/120 just ti further perfect the surface. Ready fro 220 is generically speak from been through 60/90, or some sort of course grind. The more sharp angles, fractures, pits, and matrix, the more initial grind is needed. While a vibe can sorta do this initial grind using 100/120, it takes a lot of recharges, and smooths edges w/o rounding the stones very much.
Once I tried 60/90 in my Gy-roc 10# bowl, and by the 3rd recharge, it had eaten a hole in the side of the bowl.
IMHO people are almost incapable of putting in enough 1/4 inch and chips and medium pieces. Everybody always thinks about 1" pieces - or bigger. Ceramic media makes up for this. It really fills in the smaller end of the load.
Turquoise is very soft and can be difficult to tumble. Don't try it until you have your bearings.
I have run a 4.5lb Lot-O barrel with almost all media and just 3 course ground/shaped cabs because I did not want to wait for a full load. It works fine, but is a bit wasteful. The media gets worn down, most of the grit breaks down on media not stone. But, I wanted to polish those 4 cabs.
Move your media along with the batch. While it wears down, not as fast as the rock, so shrinkage will not be a problem. After a while you can have some media that has been through polish that you use only for the later stages, and then add new media to the 1st stage. I figure media is about 500 smooth when it comes, so you want to avoid putting brand new media right into polish with rocks that are closer to 1000 smooth.
Also, not all of you batch may be ready to move on at the same time. Generally you pull things out of 120/220 grind when they have the right shape and set them aside until you have set aside enough to start a medium (500, 700) batch. You then set aside anything still in course, clean the bowl, and begin the medium. Generally everything moves on at the same time from this point.
As John said, you want damp but no standing water. IF it gets to dry it will not move so fast, and you can spritz with water until it speeds up. IF there is too much mud the water spray trick stops working after a while and you just need to rinse the mud and recharge the barrel. If you are not changing grits, a perfect rinse is not always needed.
You want rocks moving rapidly with grit suspended in a light slurry. Eventually you throw enough mud that it is time to recharge.
There are some videos posted here of rocks moving in a vibe. Maybe someone remembers who posted them.
All of this is guideline because it varies a bit with the kind of rock, sizes of the rock, initial condition of the rock - including shape, desired level of perfection, the exact sizes of the grits you have on hand ... etc
Figure out if you are going to start with some of Tony's pre ground material, or stuff from the RockShed, or Turquoise .. etc. Get some ceramic media, and possibly some more grits. Then post a pic of the rock and its weight. We can give more specific advice then. Especially if there does not seem to be a good range of sizes or of some rocks have shapes that will take a very long time to round.
Also, post how the batch seems to be moving. IF it is slow or of the rocks are so fast they are popping out, we can help troubleshoot that too. IF slurry does not form we can see if you put to much water or not enough grit ... etc.
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