revco
starting to spend too much on rocks
Another Victim Of The Rockcycle
Member since February 2010
Posts: 162
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Post by revco on May 28, 2010 16:53:29 GMT -5
I just picked up some ceramic material from the Rock Shed to try out. I've been getting a little tired of the plastic pellets and the cleanup involved there. I'd like to at least reduce my need for pellets by supplementing with ceramic.
The question - I know that it's advised to pre-tumble the ceramics for metal tumbling to help reduce the edges on the ceramic material. Is that necessary for rocks? Can I just drop brand new ceramic into, say, a polish phase without worry that it might destroy my rocks? Or should I pre-tumble them in some grit first to wear down the edges a bit? In case it's relevant, this will be exclusively for 3lb Lortone barrels.
Your thoughts and experience are always valued! Thanks.
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Post by tkrueger3 on May 28, 2010 18:31:18 GMT -5
Hmmm - haven't heard of pre-tumbling ceramics. I have some that I've been using for a year now, and mostly they look just like they did when new, other than for some staining. I'd say, just dump them in whatever load you're starting, and go for it.
TOm
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Post by johnjsgems on May 28, 2010 19:21:07 GMT -5
I start them from step one so any break in is done before polish. I don't think they will affect your polish even new. Rinse them well first. When I weigh out new ceramic media my white measuring cup turns black.
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Post by deb193redux on May 29, 2010 22:43:53 GMT -5
I would dump them in any step - other than polish. You can see a real difference in polished and per-polish ceramic. SO you are not goting to get any polishing until the cceramic gets smooth enough. It will take longer in polish. I guess you can do it if you plan on running th epolish stage longer.
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revco
starting to spend too much on rocks
Another Victim Of The Rockcycle
Member since February 2010
Posts: 162
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Post by revco on May 30, 2010 17:42:44 GMT -5
Interesting...about all three spectrums of possibility, all from well known tumblers. I should have figured! My instinct would be to run 'em through a previous stage prior to polish or even something like AO1000 simply because things are so delicate in the latter stages. That's pretty much how it's working out in my tumbling cycles anyway.
For what it's worth to anyone else considering ceramics, I just got done with changing out 24lbs of rough and supplemented with ceramics this time. I felt a lot better about my balance of small-to-large with the ceramics in the mix. It's sometimes difficult for me to get a good ratio and it was nice to have something convenient, small and completely reusable to top off with. It also gave me a lot more flexibility with how I loaded my 3lb & 6lb barrels.
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revco
starting to spend too much on rocks
Another Victim Of The Rockcycle
Member since February 2010
Posts: 162
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Post by revco on Jun 4, 2010 21:30:51 GMT -5
New question!
I just recharged my rough where I used these new ceramics for the first time. I noticed that there was a LOT of grit left in the bottom of the barrels and it had almost solidified. It happened on all 4 of my 3lb barrels and both my 6lb barrels! It also had the nasty side affect of a poor slurry, which banged up my rocks something fierce. Soooo glad I didn't use these on my polish phase I've got going or I would have been hating life!
I waited my customary five days between recharge, used my normal amount of water (about 1/2" from the top of the rocks/ceramics) and had about 1Tbls of pellets per pound of rocks in the mix. They rolled for all five days and were thrown on the tumbler immediately after adding the water, so it's not like they were sitting still for any period of time. It was about a 90% reload from the previous round of rough, so the majority of the rocks were the same. The water level was about right when I opened the barrels, so it's not like the ceramics significantly absorbed the water. The only thing that was really different was the ceramics.
I've used a little bit more water this time and less ceramics, thinking that might help a bit. I also established a control on one barrel with no ceramics at all. I'll check a barrel this weekend to see if this is occurring again. In the mean time, has anyone else had this happen and should I adjust my formula in any way?
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Post by johnjsgems on Jun 4, 2010 23:17:17 GMT -5
The ceramics should if anything help stop rocks getting "beat up" as they will cushion. and, with the ceramics increasing contact are you should see slurry forming quicker. Diamond Pacific recommends filling to 2/3 of drum and add ceramics to 3/4. That isn't a lot of ceramics in a 3 lb. drum. I've never had a problem and use ceramics for filler when I don't have full loads.
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revco
starting to spend too much on rocks
Another Victim Of The Rockcycle
Member since February 2010
Posts: 162
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Post by revco on Jun 5, 2010 11:10:48 GMT -5
That's precisely what I would have thought - more "small" things would help form a slurry more quickly due to the increased agitation and would also provide better cutting ability with more grit movement. I'm really confused over what happened because I typically don't have problems with my slurries. Honestly, it looked exactly as if I had taken the barrels out and let them sit for some time. (Which I didn't do) I'm well past the newbie stage, so regular checking just doesn't happen anymore.
The only thing I can really think of is that maybe there wasn't enough water to begin with or some absorption occurred. I measure my loads every time to 2/3 with a little marked skewer, so my loads are spot on. In this case, I used the ceramics as filler to get me to 2/3.
Maybe it was just a first time fluke? I'll check them tomorrow (~48 hours) to observe the slurry consistency and try to get to the bottom to insure it's not solidifying again.
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Post by johnjsgems on Jun 5, 2010 14:23:22 GMT -5
Just for the fun of it why don't you add ceramics to one barrel to the 3/4 level. The rock will have less of a fall. You previously used plastic to 2/3 which cushions more.
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revco
starting to spend too much on rocks
Another Victim Of The Rockcycle
Member since February 2010
Posts: 162
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Post by revco on Jun 5, 2010 15:37:45 GMT -5
John - I forgot to acknowledge the tip. I will certainly try that if this rough batch works out in a similar fashion. I use plastic because I primarily work with micro-crystalline quartz and to me, it's a necessity to avoid fractures. I went just shy of 2/3's with rocks, put in my pellets and filled to the 2/3 mark with ceramic. I'll try the same, only stepping up to 3/4 with ceramics if the problem continues. I really want to use ceramics because of the flexibility and it's clear that others aren't having this problem...so I shouldn't either!
BTW...I got ancy and checked my slurry today (+24 hours) in one of my 3lb barrels. It's still thin, but I have some decent suspension. I couldn't check the bottom of the 3lb barrel too easily, so I think I'll have to check on my 6lbers sometime tomorrow. I'm moving a batch from 1000AO to CO today, so I'm trying to minimize my contact with 80 today.
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Post by susand24224 on Jun 6, 2010 14:43:00 GMT -5
I may be a little late for this comment, but I think your "grit on the bottom" problem was likely just a fluke. I know this happens to me on occasion (with or without ceramics) and I am clueless as to why, at least part of the time.
I have used ceramics rather than plastic in rotary tumblers for several years. When tumbling delicate stuff, such as Apache Tears, I've used as much 50% volume ratio to the rock, completely through polish. This hasn't interfered with slurry so I see no reason why adding less ceramics would. I also use ceramics when I don't have enough small rocks and haven't noticed a change when they are my "filler."
Recently I added some plastic pellets for the first time in several years because my 3B was stopping--I thought it might be the weight. I really saw little difference in either cushioning or slurry between the two, and I did it with Moonstone and mixed Mohs 7 rocks (one in each barrel). Turns out that the tumbler problem was simply that it was off balance, so the plastic pellets are returned to the shelf to collect dust.
I hope this helps a bit.
Susan
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revco
starting to spend too much on rocks
Another Victim Of The Rockcycle
Member since February 2010
Posts: 162
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Post by revco on Jun 6, 2010 16:11:17 GMT -5
It's never too late! I fairly regularly visit the forums, soaking up the advice I see here! I'm still learning how to work with a new material, so all the advice I can get is great.
That's interesting that it happens to you every so often - I don't recall it happening in easily over 150 loads, except when I get distracted and have let 'em sit without tumbling a bit. Maybe I've just been lucky? It's also good to know that higher amounts of ceramics shouldn't create any problems.
I checked one of my 6lb barrels earlier and it seems to be OK. (Excellent suspension, slurry forming, etc) I gave all the barrels a good horizontal shake and it doesn't sound like anything is caking up on the bottom, so I think I'm good this round. I'll know for sure on 9th when I recharge.
I would like to try pure ceramics because they're much easier to work with than pellets. (Oh, but how they'd be better if they floated!) I'm concerned with using pure ceramics because even with proper loading of pure rocks, I still get fractures, particularly in microcrystalline quartz. Pellets do a remarkable job at cushioning so I get a lot less fractures, even though it tends to slow down the grind a bit. I need to experiment to see if a decent load of ceramics (sans pellets) will cure that as the pellets do. It would be so nice to work with one media...I can see myself getting frustrated with the cleanup of pellet/ceramic combos after not too long.
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Post by susand24224 on Jun 7, 2010 1:14:45 GMT -5
My response when I start seeing fractures (or am working with something known to fracture) is to add a few TBs of borax or Ivory Snow to thicken the liquid immediately. I've read mixed reviews of this method, but it has worked for me. I haven't done any rose quartz or amethyst lately, but have done Apache Tears recently with very little chipping using this method. When I don't use the borax or soap, I have fracture problems.
Perhaps I wouldn't have to use these additives if I used plastic pellets--but I really don't mind adding them.
Susan
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revco
starting to spend too much on rocks
Another Victim Of The Rockcycle
Member since February 2010
Posts: 162
|
Post by revco on Jun 15, 2010 21:02:48 GMT -5
Ugh, I hate to be a pain but these ceramics are sure turning out way more difficult than I expected!
So I've done two more rough batches with ceramics since my problem post. On the second, I used more water (to the top of the ceramics) and gave 'em a good horizontal shake about 24 hours into the roll. I still had some grit left in my 6lbers, albeit a lot less than first time. My 3lbers were significantly better, with only a little grit left, although there was still more than normal. I recharged with ceramics again, to 3/4 this time, and the same with the water level. This round, I did not give them the "shake" and lo and behold, my 3lbers had a fair amount of grit left. Interestingly, however, my 6lbers were perfectly fine and virtually no grit was left.
I've taken care to note exactly what I'm seeing and it looks like the ceramics are somehow sticking to the bottom of the barrel and it seems to be gumming up the grit. It doesn't seem like there's a 6lb vs 3lb problem and the higher water levels don't seem to have much effect. Just to be clear, I wasn't having any grit problems prior to introducing ceramics and my methods haven't really changed, except for the experimentation efforts.
Is there some possible reaction to ceramics and pellets in the same load? (Particularly in rough with the thicker grit?) Should I consider getting some larger ceramics and use them in combination? (I'm currently only using the small ones from Rock Shed) Is violent daily shaking just a part of the ceramics gig? Any other ideas?
Next round, I'm going to try pure ceramics minus the pellets. For this charge, I plan on giving them a handful of shakes over several days to try and break up the grit at the bottom.
Thanks again!
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revco
starting to spend too much on rocks
Another Victim Of The Rockcycle
Member since February 2010
Posts: 162
|
Post by revco on Sept 2, 2010 18:36:19 GMT -5
I hate to bring this back up, but this is driving me nuts! What I can tell you is that I'm consistently having grit left in the bottom of the barrel when I use ceramics...and it's happened pretty much every recharge since I introduced them, except when I vigorously shake the barrels every day or two. From what I can tell, it's not affecting the efficiency drastically, but it does a little bit and I'm irritated by having to recover unused grit. The problem seems to consistently happen in my 3lb barrels, quite irregularly in my 6lb'ers (may be flukes)...but the weird thing is, it almost NEVER happens in my very well used 3A barrel, whether it's put on my 33B or 3A! This barrel has an odd tendency to create black foam these days, which I figure might be helping it. I try to treat each and every barrel the same, within reason, and I generally sample each test with 3-4 3lb barrels to make sure I see results across all barrels. I attempt to keep things methodical, having learned to do so by teaching myself to tumble well before RTH came around. So far, I've tried the following and none of it seems to make a difference: - Adding 2+ tablespoons of very small rock chips to each barrel
- Removing all larger sized rocks
- Various water levels, high and low
- 2/3 of rocks, up to 3/4 ceramics
- Just under 2/3 rocks, up to 2/3 ceramics
- Just under 2/3 rocks, up to 3/4 ceramics
- Less grit - 2TB per 3lb barrel
- No plastic pellets and with plastic pellets
- Adding a small handful of large ceramics
- A few others, but I'm feeling lazy and don't feel like checking my notes.
My next tests are to reduce the load size to 1/2 supplementing with ceramics and trying large ceramics exclusively. I'm also considering doing a full tear down & clean of my 3lb tumblers since it has been about six months since I've done so. (I keep them well oiled and they don't seem like they're running sluggish from visual inspection) Could this be bunk ceramics, like maybe an incorrect density or something? Is there a similar material that I might try to isolate the ceramic material with?
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Post by johnjsgems on Sept 2, 2010 20:46:21 GMT -5
You mentioned "large ceramics". Do you have the small size also? I would drop the plastic pellets too. PM me a shipping address (USPS). I'll send you a sample to try of some weird ceramic triangles I recently started carrying.
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Post by deb193redux on Sept 6, 2010 10:44:19 GMT -5
John - Can you say more about the size of these triangles? DO they come in a range of sizes?
Also, can you get the Raytech MicroBrite balls?
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revco
starting to spend too much on rocks
Another Victim Of The Rockcycle
Member since February 2010
Posts: 162
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Post by revco on Sept 10, 2010 13:03:23 GMT -5
John,
I can't thank you enough for this offer. If they work out for me, I'll be sure to order a bunch!
I do have the small ones and I use them rather liberally, especially in my 3lb barrels. The larger ones are more suitable for my 6lb barrels, but I also try to use the small ones as well.
FYI, for my current load, I removed everything above one inch, used a very liberal number of small rocks (almost an inch per barrel) and about 2 tablespoons of small ceramics. I am certain this is a problem with forming a proper slurry, but I still don't understand why! I'm headed out of town for a week or so, but I will tear down the tumblers when I get back.
Thanks again!
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Post by johnjsgems on Sept 10, 2010 22:01:53 GMT -5
The triangles are very strange and something like 1/4" across x 1/2" long and hard to describe. I previously sold the standard angle cut cylinders but had a falling out with my supplier. I found these through another source and price was better. They look like they would have a lot of contact area due to weird shape. Daniel.I'll look into the Microbrite. I can order any current Raytech product but have to meet minimum order amounts to get a discount. I'll let you know.
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revco
starting to spend too much on rocks
Another Victim Of The Rockcycle
Member since February 2010
Posts: 162
|
Post by revco on Sept 22, 2010 15:04:25 GMT -5
Just an FYI, I think I finally figured out my problem! Note to self - always, always, always document what changes. With everything!
So shortly before adding the ceramics into the mix, I made some new measuring sticks. I realized that my loads might have been a little high when I went to mark 1/2 on my measuring stick. I re-ran my calculations for my barrel and I realized that I had mis-marked my measuring sticks. My 2/3 mark was actually just under 3/4 and my 3/4 was a bit high. So, I've been overloading my barrels! DOH!
Man, you gotta be careful when converting odd fractions (like 2/3) into linear measurements! It's sure easy to fudge a number if you're not careful!
My last load came out 100% OK, now that I've corrected this problem. I'll keep an eye on it, but I think I'll be in better shape now.
Sorry for sending everyone on a goose chase! Thanks for all the help in trying to figure this out, though.
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