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Post by fishenman on Jul 11, 2010 13:24:20 GMT -5
Hi everyone! ;D I have pictures of a cab that needed some fracture repair. It came out great. Is it ethical to sell this cab without disclosing the opticon treatment? I have read that the resin eventually turns color making the fractures just as evident if not more. I will keep this cab as a test to see how long it takes for that to happen. Before After I know, the exposure is different on the two pics. I'm trying to refine my photos. Thanks, Geoff
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,456
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Post by Sabre52 on Jul 11, 2010 13:37:16 GMT -5
Wow that made quite an improvement. I think I'd disclose the Opticon treatment. If for nothing else, it would be interesting to see if a treated cab holds up or not. I think I have some of that somewhere and after seeing your example, I've a mind to try it next time I have a rare material that I want to cab that has flaws.....Mel
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Post by phil on Jul 11, 2010 14:00:18 GMT -5
It would be unethical and just plain wrong. Put yourself in the buyers shoes. How would you feel if you bought it and found out later it was stabilized? You'd be furious and looking for that dealer.
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joemojave
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since October 2009
Posts: 133
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Post by joemojave on Jul 11, 2010 15:22:40 GMT -5
In the future you could try using water glass, which is a solution of silica in water. It has the same RI as glass and quartz but it does not degrade over time. I am still experimenting with it to get the process perfected but it seems to work pretty well.
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Post by fishenman on Jul 11, 2010 15:36:03 GMT -5
It would be unethical and just plain wrong. Put yourself in the buyers shoes. How would you feel if you bought it and found out later it was stabilized? You'd be furious and looking for that dealer. I agree 100% Phil. Plus I hate working with epoxy resin. This cab is not going to be sold, I will hang onto it to see what happens over time. Thanks Joe, I will look into water glass. The best thing to do is not cab fractured materials. Geoff
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dbrealityrocks
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2010
Posts: 1,084
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Post by dbrealityrocks on Jul 11, 2010 17:50:50 GMT -5
I agree w/not cabbing fractured material. I drop fractured slabs onto concrete from about 18" flat and choose what's left, also makes for interesting cabs. I do have an opal that was $800 for the rough and set in 18k and 22k gold that crazed about 2 rears later that I used opticon on, it's been 5 years w/no discoloration and I would sell it for the value of the gold telling people about the opticon.
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Post by Tonyterner on Jul 11, 2010 20:23:03 GMT -5
Yes the best thing is not to cabbed fractured material but sometimes you get that one piece that you can't resist. You know its cracked but you have to see if polished up anyway. So there is some use for that stuff. You have to disclose it though.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 11, 2010 21:52:44 GMT -5
Is there a trade name for water glass ? And where can it be bought at ? I know that back in WW 2 they used to preserve eggs still in the shell in the stuff. It has also been used to mend minor cracks in engine blocks. Don
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Post by bobby1 on Jul 11, 2010 22:16:38 GMT -5
I have been using Opticon for many years and I haven't had any problems with it yellowing. Maybe some of the earlier formulas might have yellowed but I havent ever seen any that has yellowed. I do have some Ammonite doublets that I bought a few years ago and they have yellowed, but the sealer/adhesive that was used is some kind of soft rubbery material. Bob
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steelandstone
has rocks in the head
Member since September 2008
Posts: 500
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Post by steelandstone on Jul 12, 2010 5:40:38 GMT -5
Is there a trade name for water glass ? And where can it be bought at ? I know that back in WW 2 they used to preserve eggs still in the shell in the stuff. It has also been used to mend minor cracks in engine blocks. Don Sodium Silicate and you can find it at the chemistry store online www.chemistrystore.com/Sodium_Silicate-Sodium_Silicate_1_Gallon.html
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Post by sitnwrap on Jul 12, 2010 7:16:29 GMT -5
Geoff, at what stage do you normally use the opticon? Obviously you used it on this cab after you had it all polished up so once you put it in opticon to seal the fracture, at what grit did you bring it back down to?
I have a gorgeous opal that I cabbed but it fractured during the poilish stage due to heat. I'd lose too much opal if I reshaped so I want to opticon it.
The cab came out beautiful.
Lori
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Post by frane on Jul 12, 2010 8:02:48 GMT -5
I think that it sure helped that cab! I have a whole pile that need the treatment and then a final polish. I am with Lori though. How did you do the cab? What grit did you take it back to and what polish if any did you use after the treatment? Fran
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Post by fishenman on Jul 12, 2010 10:42:32 GMT -5
I finished the stone first on the 14000 wheel. Then the treatment in opticon. After the treatment, I scraped off the cured opticon with a razor blade, I never took it back to the wheels.
Geoff
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jimrbto
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since April 2007
Posts: 94
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Post by jimrbto on Jul 12, 2010 16:33:20 GMT -5
I don't have a source for perfect slabs/cabs so I do use Optican. I prefer to use it on cabs that are near finish. Place in a vacuum for a short time heated. If I were a seller I would, of course, inform any prospective buyer that it was used and show where.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 12, 2010 17:30:31 GMT -5
It should be noted that Opticon will show up under a UV light, showing if someone has tried to cheat a customer. Don
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Post by stonesthatrock on Jul 13, 2010 0:37:30 GMT -5
i'm sure you are all aware that they have been using an opticon like stuff on turquoise for generations. Natural turquoise is too soft to work so to stabilize it i believe they use an opticon like substance. Not sure what it is but it must be something similar. No one tells you when you buy a turquoise ring or even a cab, that it has been stabilized.
mary ann
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Post by deb193redux on Jul 13, 2010 9:26:29 GMT -5
I think the need to disclose any treatment to hide fractures is paramount on expensive material, but simply advisable on cheaper stuff. Opticon, oils, other polymers ... etc have been used on opal and even stones such as emerald. On these high dollar stones, where the buyer might be expecting fracture-free quality it is fraud to hide the treatment.
But, I think the situation is very different if a flaw is sneakily being hidden versus a routine process to make material workable that might not otherwise be workable. Like stabilizing turquoise.
As Mary Ann mentions stabilization is the norm for some materials and I am not sure it needs to be mentioned - just do not brag about "natural" stone or such. In fact if you have more common (e.g., < $10/lb) materials that needed stabilization or sealing to make the finished piece, I might note the treatment and CHARGE EXTRA FOR IT.
I do not sell - at least not so far, I just give things away. But, I often want to work interesting material that needs treatment. PruHeart agate is one example. The vugs common in most Regency Rose is another. Sometimes I need to harden the rhyolite around some agate or jasper, or stabilize the flaky quartz inside some coral cells. It takes time and money to do this. It is not a "cheat" but a part of the craft.
I have been thinking about working some palm wood where the needles have left holes instead of filling in with agate. I plan to fill some pieces with superglue, and some I will fill with wax (to keep out grit/rock dust) and then remove the wax to see what a finished piece with many small holes looks like.
So if you are making a big deal about "natural" or if the material commonly does not need treatment and whoever gets it might assume it was solid, then it is good ethics to explain things. But, if you have slabs worth a few bucks each, and you routinely put waterglass or superglue or resin in the small cracks or voids or tiny pitts or soft spots, and then are selling pendants in a very reasonable price range, I would not make too big a deal about the process. I would enthusiastically discuss the process if asked, and like I said, I might even charge a premium for making a material workable.
I am starting to work some Cherry Creek and other materials with healed fractures. In many picture jaspers the colors profuse along fracture lines that heal. Sometimes there is a small segment that is a little less healed, or has more grainy quartz crystals in it. I routinely seal these, and I am not sure when I have a handful of finished pieces that I would even know which had only nature-healed fractures and which had fratures that were partly Daniel-healed.
Basically intent and expectations play a considerable role here. Few things are clear-cut black and white. If you have "actualized" a material maybe charge more, if you have "repaired" something then treat it as a factory second.
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Post by phil on Jul 13, 2010 16:00:24 GMT -5
i'm sure you are all aware that they have been using an opticon like stuff on turquoise for generations. Natural turquoise is too soft to work so to stabilize it i believe they use an opticon like substance. Not sure what it is but it must be something similar. No one tells you when you buy a turquoise ring or even a cab, that it has been stabilized. mary ann I beg to differ...... yes they do. You may have to ask in some less reputable places tho. I've been doing turquoise since the 70's and rarely find unlabeled rough.
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