guitarc
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since November 2010
Posts: 77
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Post by guitarc on Nov 14, 2010 12:29:48 GMT -5
Hi Everyone,
I just found this site and in reading the threads I am learning a lot! I am new to working with stone and I am taking a Beginning Cabochon class now which is great because I'm learning a lot being hands on with trim saws and cabbing machines like Genie's, Titan, CabKing and other types of grinders and polishers .
I became interested in lapidary after a student of mine (I'm a guitar teacher) gave me an agate guitar pick. I was blown away by the added tonality and brightness compared to the heavy lexan jazz picks I normally use. I took the class because I was told that making cabochons would be a good introduction to the different techniques and equipment.
I have several questions based on wanting to create stone guitar picks made of materials 6 or harder on the mohs scale (most likely agates and jaspers). They will be in the 2-4mm thickness range and about the size of a quarter(if you don't know the average size of a guitar pick). I know there are several different ways to get to the end result like by using a flat lap or wheeled grinders. However, I think that trimming out thin slabs on a trim saw and then using a vibratory tumbler like the Lot O Tumbler would work well. I have not yet purchased any equipment so I am in the gathering information stage here.
I am thinking that a rotary tumbler would be a bad idea since it would change a preform's shape too much. Am I correct in thinking this?
I have read about using a trim saw not only to trim out the shape but as a fine type grinder when using a tile blade. This would be great if it's true because maybe I don't need a grinder then! Is this possible? The amount of grinding I need to do if using a vibratory tumbler to shape and polish would be very minimal.
It will take many quarter sized thin slabs to add up to 3lbs in a tumbler so I will definitely will be adding other small stones or ceramic pellets when tumbling.
Will I need all three stages (course, medium and polish) in a vibratory tumbler to create a finished product from trimmed out preforms?
Can a simple glass cutter tool be used to shape slabs that are very thin (2-4mm)? If so, what kind of Glass Cutter tool?
Would a 4" or 7" Harbor Freight tile saw be a good choice? Any other suggestions?
I am leaning toward the Lot O Tumbler but would like to hear what people think about the UV3 and Gy-Roc Vibrahone B or other small vibratory tumblers that you feel would do the job.
I look forward to all your expert advice!
Thanks!
Chris
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drjo
fully equipped rock polisher
Honduran Opal & DIY Nut
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,581
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Post by drjo on Nov 14, 2010 14:49:03 GMT -5
Welcome, you are gonna love is place!!!
I think you will answer your own question about a saw grinding enough away for polishing once you start work in your class. It is possible to do the work this way, but easier shaping with a cabber. For polish on something like picks a vibe tumbler is great with controlling the shape with your grinding.
Keep us posted on your progress.
Dr Joe
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guitarc
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since November 2010
Posts: 77
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Post by guitarc on Nov 14, 2010 15:11:47 GMT -5
Thanks Dr Joe!
Sorry I must have not been to clear in my post. I am taking a class now. Its a 10 week class and we are 8 weeks in. I use the trim saws there a lot for the cabochons we are making but it is a thin lapidary blade (as it should be). I thought I read a post from a member here that when the blades used for cutting tiles are used (not ideal for most lapidary work), a tile blade can actually help you grind material. The reason I am asking is that if this is so, maybe it will help me not have to make purchase a cab machine which I know are quite expensive. I'd rather not pay $500 for even a cheapo cabber if I am hardly going to need it. My thought process was that if most of the shaping of the picks can be done in a vibratory tumbler, I don't need to buy a cab machine or wheeled grinder. I possibly can use the trim saw, tile blade, glass cutter etc. to prep it before going in a tumbler. But that is what I don't know and the lapidary club where I am taking the class does not have any type of tumblers.
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Post by jakesrocks on Nov 14, 2010 15:24:54 GMT -5
Welcome aboard Chris. If you don't want to spend a bundle of money on your own equipment, my suggestion would be to join a rock club which has its own shop and equipment. A single investment in a good vibe tumbler would be the only equipment you'd need at home. I'd suggest that you make your guitar pics out of jade. Either Jadeite or Nephrite will work. If an agate pic is accidentally dropped on a hard surface, chances are that it will break. Jade on the other hand will most likely only bounce. Jade is much tougher material than agate. Jade can also be found in many colors, and variations of colors. And the sound quality should be as good as, or even better than agate. Don
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guitarc
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since November 2010
Posts: 77
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Post by guitarc on Nov 14, 2010 16:22:32 GMT -5
Thanks Don!
I wish the club I am taking the class at was closer than 1.5 hrs away & it is the closest club with a workshop. Â Even if it was closer it would not be a solution though. Â Unlike other clubs, there is no open workshop time. Â Classes are 2hrs a week for 10 weeks & they are specific. Â So I can't take a cabachon or faceting class & work on guitar picks. Â If you are not taking a class, you are not in the workshop. Â Bummer, I know. Â So that leaves me with having to do things on my own. Â Don't get me wrong, I am learning a lot from being hands on with the equipment but once the class is over there is no access to the workshop unless I take another class. Â I won't be doing that because the other classes are wire wrapping, faceting etc and do not interest me especially when it's 3 hrs round trip for each class.
I do plan on working with jade for making picks. Â I have heard good and bad about jade. Â You mentioned the good. Â The bad I heard was that some types of jade are prone to inclusions and jade can be hard to polish. Â I do not know how true these things are since I have not yet worked with jade.
Chris
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Post by jakesrocks on Nov 14, 2010 16:35:44 GMT -5
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Post by rockrookie on Nov 14, 2010 19:34:03 GMT -5
welcome to RTH !! --paul
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drjo
fully equipped rock polisher
Honduran Opal & DIY Nut
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,581
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Post by drjo on Nov 14, 2010 20:41:51 GMT -5
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MikeS
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2009
Posts: 1,081
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Post by MikeS on Nov 14, 2010 20:46:01 GMT -5
You could use a tile blade to do some grinding, but it would be cumbersome and inefficient. I'd suggest looking for a used lapidary machine online, at yard and estate sales, etc. Most likely, as you get good at guitar picks, you'll want to expand your lapidary experience to other things, so you will probably end up getting one eventually anyway...this hobby tends to do that to people...lol....If you still find the used equipment to be out of your price range, a dremel tool is excellent for some minor grinding and shaping. As for tumblers, the lot-o is a good one...you definately want a vibe, as a rotory would be more likely to crack or break your thin guitar picks. On material...jade would be ideal because of it's durability...it's one of the most durable rocks on the planet! (Don't confuse durability with hardness ) I do a lot of work with jade...it can be a tricky medium to work in...yes, it does come in a variety of purities, and yes, some of them can be tricky to polish, but if you are persistent, you'll be pleased with the results. Unless you live in one of the few places in the US where you can collect jade yourself (as I'm lucky enough to be able to do), you'll have to buy it. Nephrite from Wyoming tends to be amongst the most pure, but high quality specimens are scarce now and tend to command high prices. Big Sur Nephrite would be a good choice, it tends to be more available at reasonable prices. BC and Alaska Jades are comparable to the stuff from Wyoming, but can be a bit pricey. Enjoy your new hobby, and post some pictures of the finished products! MikeS
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guitarc
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since November 2010
Posts: 77
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Post by guitarc on Nov 14, 2010 21:59:16 GMT -5
Don thanks for the link! I will check with Tony
Thanks Paul!
Dr Joe I check Craigslist for lapidary stuff and that HF tile blade does look good. I do have a cheap dremel and a few drills. I thought about using them for lapidary but I thought using water with them would be unsafe for me and bad for the tools. Not using water when working stone from what I have learned is bad for the diamonds, the stone and most importantly ones health. Do you have some setup that allows for the safe use of water with drills or dremels? If I remember correctly there is something called a flexshaft dremel attachment but I don't know if that allowed for using regular dremels in water due to distancing from the motor.
Thanks Mike! I am trying to be smart about all this since lapidary is not a $5.00 hobby/business. I am sure I will be doing other things with stone besides guitar picks. Cabbing has come easy for me and I really like working on the CabKing. I would also like to slab my own rough but realistically realize I can purchase thin cut slabs off ebay and from other online sites and mineral shows. I could spend $2500 and get a 12" Lortone slab saw and a CabKing, however, with my intended usage of them it would be a huge waste if all I am doing is making guitar picks in a Lot O Tumbler and using a slab saw and CabKing for 2 hrs a month. I will continue to keep my eyes and ears open at mineral shows, craigslist and yard and estate sales. The club I take the class at has a silent auction every 6 months so I may find stuff at the next auction which will be the first one since I learned of the club. Thanks for your advice about the Lot O Tumbler. I have found that many like that the bowl lasts forever and that the frame has a lifetime warranty not to mention the great job they say it does. Thanks for the tips about jade. I will definitely post pictures once I get going!
Thanks
Chris
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Post by jakesrocks on Nov 14, 2010 22:17:03 GMT -5
Chris, you should be able to buy a flex shaft and hand piece for your Dremel. They aren't very expensive, and will get your Dremel motor at least 36" away from water. The Dremel motor itself can be lightly clamped in a vise, or they make a bench stand for it.
Don
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guitarc
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since November 2010
Posts: 77
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Post by guitarc on Nov 14, 2010 22:28:36 GMT -5
Thanks Don,
So would you then use the flex shaft under water? What would this setup look like with the small stone piece being worked by the flex shaft?
Also, would a simple glass cutter tool be of any use in trimming/shaping a 3mm thick slab of stone when cutting out the pick template?
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Post by johnjsgems on Nov 14, 2010 22:47:27 GMT -5
The 4" tile saw would be good for what you want. If the picks will be flat you will only grind the outer shape. Buy a tile saw with 5/8" arbor and you can use it with thin lapidary blades also. I use a 4" tile saw (MK145) for all my trimming. A band saw would be nice but I would add it later if it was me. If you want to taper the flat surfaces you would need a flat cabber. I've never used a Lotto but am really impressed with GyRoc. The B would be big enough for what you want. You will need about 70% ceramic media or pea gravel. You don't use coarse grit with any vibe tumbler. 120/220, 500F, and polish is most common.
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guitarc
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since November 2010
Posts: 77
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Post by guitarc on Nov 14, 2010 22:49:24 GMT -5
I found it! I found the thread where johnsjsgems mentions how tile saw blades are good for trimming. The thread is "Trimming Tumbling Rock" Here is what John said:
"Buy a cheap tile saw. Tile blades make terrible rock cutters but great grinders. Someone told me Harbor Freight has 4" tile saws for about $50. A 4" would likely work OK for a grinder or minor trimming. The 7" would give you taller cutting capacity."
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Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Nov 14, 2010 22:51:01 GMT -5
Hi Chris, Let's see, a tile saw will let you round corners on the pics, but it's going to be very difficult to cut thin slabs, especially with consistent thickness. I would also be concerned about the tile saw breaking up the slabs as you try to cut them. At least the WorkForce tile saw (Home Depot) that I had was a bit abusive. Or maybe that was just me. Yes, the flex shaft is what you want when working wet with a Dremel. It works great. That would be a good combination with a trim saw, assuming you use the Dremel to do the shaping. I definitely would not want to try to polish picks on a grinding wheel. It's too hard to do flats and you're liable to have picks slide out of your hands. Yes, the Lot-O would be a good tumbler for your project. Let us know how else we can help. Chuck
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Post by johnjsgems on Nov 14, 2010 22:57:57 GMT -5
I understood you were getting thin slabs to trim and finish? Not slabbing with tile saw which won't work for thin slabs.
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guitarc
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since November 2010
Posts: 77
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Post by guitarc on Nov 14, 2010 23:01:04 GMT -5
LOL Thanks John! I just posted what you said in another thread. I pasted it without knowing you had responded to this post.
From your post here on this thread am I understanding it correctly that if the surfaces of the picks are flat, I can trim the outer shape with a 4" tile saw using a thin lapidary blade then use a tile blade to grind the outer shape?
Thanks for the Info about the Gy-Roc B! Do you find that the bowls last long?
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guitarc
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since November 2010
Posts: 77
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Post by guitarc on Nov 14, 2010 23:05:20 GMT -5
I understood you were getting thin slabs to trim and finish? Not slabbing with tile saw which won't work for thin slabs. John you are correct. I would only be working with thin slabs on a trim saw. I know slabs can only be made consistently thin on a slab saw with a vise.
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guitarc
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since November 2010
Posts: 77
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Post by guitarc on Nov 14, 2010 23:20:31 GMT -5
Thanks Chuck!
Yes, slabs will be already made thin with a slab saw. For now I will purchase them this way since spending $1100 for a slab saw I use rarely is not a smart move.
Would you be concerned about a tile saw fitted with a thin diamond lapidary blade breaking up a thin slab while trimming?
What would the set up look like when using the flex shaft in water?
I have only made larger cabochons on grinding wheels but I think it would be difficult to work a pick on a grinding wheel too. Dopping both sides would waste time and if it was done without dopping I think it would be very difficult. However, some make stone picks this way.
Chris
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Post by johnjsgems on Nov 15, 2010 8:13:58 GMT -5
Chris, I watched a guy do exactly that. The MK145 comes with both a lapidary and tile blade. He trim cut his ovals then installed the tile blade to grind away the points and make oval preforms. I've only used the 303C blade that comes with it for rock but it slices like it is cutting butter. When I'm at Cloud's show in January I have mine set up to demo and play with. Everyone that tries it is blown away by how well it works. I imagine the HF saw would be the same. Mine has a 1/2 hp motor that turns 5500 rpm. Only real downside is it screams like a Skill saw rather than hums like a rock saw. As far as the flex shaft, you can either keep the rock in a shallow pan of water or keep dipping it in water. I bought the stand mentioned so my Dremel stays put and I move the rock so don't use my flex shaft. Pretty much like using a wheel. If you can download Diamond Pacific's catalog page 26 has a neat carving station. I know several people that have made their own set ups modeled after it. You could likely hold a pick and grind outer shape on a cab machine without dopping. Most people preform their cabs by hand and dop before doing the domes.
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