lloyd1wv
starting to shine!
Member since December 2010
Posts: 47
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Post by lloyd1wv on Jan 4, 2011 8:07:18 GMT -5
Last night I read on a website somewhere (forgot where now) about using a few drops of vinegar to make a batch more acid, and adding borax if you wanted the batch to be more basic. I really didn't understand that. = Can someone comment of managing acidity? Is it really important? What type of rocks get what? Do any of you use vinegar in a batch? - And I guess in the many threads that speak of adding borax, we are creating a basic ph by doing so?? This whole thing confuses me. (Doesn't take much to confuse me!!!) Thanks for your comments! Lloyd
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Post by johnjsgems on Jan 4, 2011 9:23:48 GMT -5
I'm sure those that use borax will answer but most people use it only to burnish (wash load and drum) between stages and after polish. Tumbling is not rocket science. I wouldn't try to make it complicated. I squirted some good Quartzsite water on my slabs here yesterday and have cloudy rocks now. I suppose if you are in a really hard water area a little vinegar would help with the polish stage although using distilled water would be easier with smaller tumblers.
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Post by susand24224 on Jan 4, 2011 11:52:45 GMT -5
I've tumbled in different states and many different water sources, and have seen differences in the best methods to succeed. I know of no explanation other than water differencees to explain the differences. That being said, I never added vinegar, and stopped even burnishing with borax when it dulled the finish of some fluorite I was tumbling. I have no idea whether pH of the water causes the differences I have seen, but it would be interesting to add some vinegar to a batch or two and not add it later if one has enough rough of the same type to experiment.
Susan
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Post by Toad on Jan 4, 2011 13:15:20 GMT -5
I don't worry about pH. I use borax because the slurry seems to wash off the stones a lot easier.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jan 4, 2011 13:22:40 GMT -5
Here in N.E. South Dakota the water is so hard that I use a borax wash between all stages of tumbling. The borax burnish after final polish really brings out a shine. I've heard of using vinegar in tumblers, but have never tried it. The idea of adding vinegar has been around since at least the 60's.
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Digforcrystals
spending too much on rocks
Member since July 2008
Posts: 351
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Post by Digforcrystals on Jan 4, 2011 13:28:01 GMT -5
I think borax is boric acid , which is uh, an acid.
so vinegar = acetic acid , borax = boric acid. Both acids! I had thought borax was boric acid , but stand corrected ( see below ) . Borax is actually a salt of boric acid. But I am betting this is a pretty common misconception that borax is boric acid.
I have read somewhere that ph affects polish. It doesnt seem logical that ph would affect rough grinds because it is just a physical abrasion.
Polishing hasnt been exactly determined or explained to where folks agree on what is happening exactly. I do think ph has an effect on it but not sure how or why , or even what the should be.
I have heard people say that borax is an abrasive but it dissolves so that couldnt be true , could it? Borax does have chemical activity and while it shouldnt have effect on something inert such as quartz, it wouldnt surprise me that it has an effect on something that is chemically unstable or reactive such as fluorite.
I think in the case cited that the fluorite was chemically attacked by the borax and that this would have happened without even turning the tumbler on , just soaking it in the solution would have done the same thing.
As Toad mentioned , the slurry washes off the stones easier. I think borax is mainly used as an anti-surfactant that doesnt foam more so than any other reason. I suppose that borax works good in hard water is why it is recommend over soap ( such as ivory ) .
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Post by jakesrocks on Jan 4, 2011 14:08:39 GMT -5
I use borax after all stages, basically to remove all grit from the stones. It even cleans grit out of holes and cracks. When I get to pre-polish and polish, I leave the plastic pellets in and wash them as well. I don't tumble soft stones, so can't speak to the effects borax may have on them, but I know that for me it works good on quartz based stones.
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Roan
has rocks in the head
Member since January 2008
Posts: 600
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Post by Roan on Jan 4, 2011 14:43:07 GMT -5
Borax is not boric acid. It is sodium borate (sodium tetraborate, or disodium tetraborate), a boron compound that can be used to make boric acid. The borax we use for tumbling, 20 Mule Team, is sodium tetraborate -- straight borax, not a boronate.
So the question I have is, if you've had problems, are you using 20 Mule Team or are you using something else?
Fluorite is composed of calcium fluoride, which will dissolve if exposed to acidic bases. If your water KH is really low it may be possible that it would haze over, even with a pH buffer of borax.
Eileen
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 4, 2011 14:52:12 GMT -5
Very basic water here as compared to California tumbling but the only real difference I've noticed is maybe a bit more water spotting which is taken care of by the Dreft burnish. Odd but I've never burped a barrel in forty plus years and only had a single time the load leaked....Mel
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Post by susand24224 on Jan 4, 2011 14:59:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the comments on the fluorite. I only got a slight haze, but it was hazier than it was coming out of 1000. A return to 1000 and Ivory Soap burnish corrected the problem.
Interesting thread you started, lloyd1wv!
Susan
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Post by johnjsgems on Jan 4, 2011 15:08:55 GMT -5
You're asking for it Mel. I always burped barrels every three days like my book said. Never heard any sign of gas build up. Left my Thumler's running over a`long weekend and came home to find the lid popped off and made a mess. Don't remember what I was tumbling. Never happened again. I must have deserved it. When I started tumbling I had a couple of nice tumbles and then read about using pellets to cushion. Those guys are crazy I thought. Next batch got almost done and fractured terribly (pidgeon blood agate).
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Roan
has rocks in the head
Member since January 2008
Posts: 600
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Post by Roan on Jan 4, 2011 15:14:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the comments on the fluorite. I only got a slight haze, but it was hazier than it was coming out of 1000. A return to 1000 and Ivory Soap burnish corrected the problem. Interesting thread you started, lloyd1wv! Susan Trying to think. . . I raised rainbowfish for a number of years and did a lot of research on water chemistry. . . where are you located, Susan? What state? Although I really do feel that we are making this more complicated than it need be, it's a neat discussion Borax has a pH of 9.5, btw, so it's definitely base. Eileen
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lloyd1wv
starting to shine!
Member since December 2010
Posts: 47
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Post by lloyd1wv on Jan 4, 2011 16:52:38 GMT -5
I found that article I was reading on PH effects on polishing. users.lmi.net/drewid/DF_COMPOUNDS.htmlThe whole article is interesting. The section on Acidity and alkalinity is the 5th subject paragraph down. Lloyd.
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Post by susand24224 on Jan 4, 2011 17:24:52 GMT -5
Eileen, I am currently located in central Washington, well water, with a water softener attached that adds small quantities of salt to combat lime deposits. This is the combo that "attacked" my fluorite.
Previous places I've been where I found tumbling conditions somewhat different were Lincoln County, Washington, Maryland (right outside of D.C.) and SW Virginia. All was well water except MD. All had excess lime, but this is the only place with a water softener.
I've never run a pH test on the water and don't have litmus paper--wonder if the soil tester would work (?)
Susan
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Roan
has rocks in the head
Member since January 2008
Posts: 600
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Post by Roan on Jan 4, 2011 19:59:41 GMT -5
Eileen, I am currently located in central Washington, well water, with a water softener attached that adds small quantities of salt to combat lime deposits. This is the combo that "attacked" my fluorite. Makes sense. Softeners work by replacing calcium ions with sodium ions and that stuff is also bad for fish. It actually increases the DOC (ah, "thickness") of the water and over time will causes a breakdown in their bone and scale structure. Fish need calcium, not salts. Sounds like your fluorite does, too. I would just use bottled water in the tumblers instead. Spring water will work fine. I wouldn't use distilled unless it specifically says that it has a neutral pH (7.0). Many don't and it could cause more trouble. I'm in Northern VA. When we lived in the city the water was buffered to a KH of 1-2 (UGH!) and a pH of around 7.2. We've moved out to the country now and the KH of the well is 16. I haven't tested the pH. Or you could get a pH test kit at a pet shop that sells fish. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (AP) has the best cheap one. About $5. There are low range and high range kits. The low tests from 6.0 to 7.6pH. You really don't need the high range one. I'd be more concerned with a low pH than a high one. You can get paper test kits as well, but they're really are not all that accurate. Then again, how accurate do you need to be? Eileen Susan[/quote]
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Post by tntmom on Jan 4, 2011 20:15:12 GMT -5
Eileen, I too raised rainbow fish for years, also had a 150 gallon coral reef tank built through the wall into the entrance staircase. Sold that house, but gosh, memories.
Susan, I am also in WA but Western WA on county water. If it helps at all, ph in Bothell is 7.2
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Roan
has rocks in the head
Member since January 2008
Posts: 600
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Post by Roan on Jan 5, 2011 0:54:24 GMT -5
Hey, how cool is that? I *just* shut down my 36g bowfront a week ago and now I'm FINALLY down to ONE tank. I had 14 (13 full of rainbowfish) tanks running for many years and I am very glad to be down to just 1 now. Man, that is a lot of work! I lost my last wanamensis six months ago (he was 4 years old) and decided enough was enough. All I have left now are a 75g with my Goo obo gudgeons and boesemani. Oh, and my son's silver dollars. The boes are about 4-5" and six years old now, and so are the dollars. What species did you keep? Eileen
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Post by tntmom on Jan 5, 2011 1:49:04 GMT -5
Eileen, gonna pm you tomorrow!! 14? Dang... Gotta find my old pics! The one thing I loved about rainbows is that they were prolific when the time was right!!!, it never failed, whether you wanted it or not, cleaning out the filters you would find masses of squirming fry. Loved that, and always scooped them out via tank or filter and traded them for corals in my reef!!! The pretty ones I had were Boseman and Madagacar, also had some that were mostly yellow (interbred with the madagascar, ticked me off but petshop didn't seem to mind) and others, gotta find the pics to remember the names....rocks have flooded my head! I'll find the pics and names and send them to you tomorrow! I also had plants in my rainbow tanks, experimented with misellaneous java, anubia, etc... did you? I definately didn't think I would run into a fellow aquariust here, guess nature is nature though and the addiction has broad boundaries!
Apologies.... I am NOT hijacking this thread!
~Krystee
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Post by susand24224 on Jan 5, 2011 19:56:31 GMT -5
Hi, Eileen, thanks for the information. I did not have trouble with the fluorite when I switched Ivory soap flakes for the borax--it sounds like the salt was the proverbial straw. I am curious about it now, and will pick up a pH kit.
Susan
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Post by susand24224 on Jan 5, 2011 19:58:30 GMT -5
Tntmom, Bothell is a distance away from me--I'm in Ephrata. I journey up that way every couple months though.
Susan
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