rocpup
spending too much on rocks
Pink Limb Iris
Member since March 2011
Posts: 465
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Post by rocpup on Mar 30, 2011 13:52:49 GMT -5
Adrian Again I am new here and my few posts might not hold much weight. But if this site allows a 2500 post member to put out mis-information to prop up his own material with negative commit. Then it may be time to react in a way to cause attention. I agree name calling might not be necessary but if the Mods are slow to react it may be the only choice to get justice. My post SW AZ has had a very high number of reads so there is interest in controlling his mis-information. Rocpup
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Post by akansan on Mar 30, 2011 14:23:34 GMT -5
I have to agree with Adrian here - and Daniel has been around longer than his post count or join date suggests.
What it comes down to is the difference between a high grade hobbiest's eye and a self-collector or beginning collector's eye, and speaking one's straightforward opinion. Daniel looks for usable high-grade lapidary material (generally of a-typical types and landscapes) and tends to speak his mind on the reality of the material for high grade lapidary usage. Is he always politic in his speeches? No. But the more people flame up around his opinions, the more he feels he has to justify why he says things.
And the board does have a tendency to say "nice" things about everything, no matter what people are really thinking.
And Rocpup - it is also the nature of people to stop and stare at drama brewing, whether it is here, a car accident, or what have you. High number of reads could very well be just people wanting to see what all the fuss is about...
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peachfront
fully equipped rock polisher
Stones have begun to speak, because an ear is there to hear them.
Member since August 2010
Posts: 1,745
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Post by peachfront on Mar 30, 2011 14:49:21 GMT -5
I was too shy to be the first to speak up, especially since I'm a noob here myself, but I find Daniel's posts very helpful, and this particular post offered a helpful idea (for me) to explain why the only Turitella we've cut so far, that I liked how it came out, was when we sent it out to somebody else to make it into a sphere! Now I realize that we were working too hard to conserve material, instead of looking carefully to orient the right way. So his post actually helped me identify a problem that I have. As a beginner, in an area with no natural rock and few rockhounds, I sometimes need someone to tell me straight out if there's a problem with what I'm doing. Why re-invent the wheel if I don't have to?
The culture of the board is to offer positive reinforcement, which is an important way to help people learn. However, sometimes there is no substitute for a helpful negative remark. I wasted a lot of time in the past, trying to conserve bad material or not knowing how important it can be to cut away "cruft" so I can properly orient the good stuff...The original poster might not need this information, but some of us do benefit from it, even if it seems too elementary for others.
Keep in mind, most people who read a thread never post, and many of us (posters or lurkers) are trying to learn new things and get new ideas, we are just beginners.
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Post by jakesrocks on Mar 30, 2011 15:12:15 GMT -5
There is a difference between constructive criticism, and being down right nasty. Daniel's comments have crossed the line many times over. If I see someone doing something wrong, I take the time to point out their mistake, and explain the proper way to do that thing. I try hard not to run them down in the eyes of the other members. But then that's just me. I care how others see me. Don
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Mudshark
fully equipped rock polisher
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
Member since December 2008
Posts: 1,083
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Post by Mudshark on Mar 30, 2011 15:13:55 GMT -5
Cool slabs Greg!Hope to see you at the N.E Roundup.
Mike
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,709
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Post by Fossilman on Mar 30, 2011 15:22:13 GMT -5
Harsh opinion that was voiced by him-NOT GOOD! I really like the Noreena and the Red Obsidian......nice cuts.
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Post by NatureNut on Mar 30, 2011 16:02:35 GMT -5
This kinda reminds me of a flame up in the wire wrapping section. It ended with a new thread where all the wrappers checked in and voiced how they felt about it. Some said, "I wanna learn, so give it to me straight", while others expressed how they mainly benefited from the support given by others.
I know that I've benefited from both. Sometimes its those hard to take comments that forced me to rise above. I do think that newcomers need a little adjustment time here on the board before they feel comfortable enough to receive fully honest feedback. Knowing Daniel like Adrian and Ronda and other do, his direct approach might benefit from some smiley emoticons, but in the end, were usually said to help someone and I think we'd all choke on our doughnuts if he started using them.
Greg, you know I've never pulled any punches in our conversations because you know I care and I know you can handle it. Your enthusiasm for going out and finding some jasper (especially in that area of the country) and then cutting it is something to be cheered. Is it top-notch material? No. But, in the area it was found, it is something special. PA/NJ isn't exactly known for its rockhounding, so it was quite an accomplishment.
Yeah, I would have saved two saws and umpteen blades if I had only cut the better grade material, but, I learned tons from hounding and cutting open what I found.
Potato ~ Potatto. Some buy high grade material and some hound and have the thrill of finding gems when they cut them open. No way is perfect. If your gonna start applying dollar values on rock, then you gotta consider the high grade standards that have been/ are being set by the industry, and I think that's where Daniel is coming from. But, for the weekend rockhound up where he lives, Greg's efforts are huge successes.
I think that's what is at the core of this thread. Jo
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Post by Roller on Mar 30, 2011 16:05:38 GMT -5
adrian and akansan ... i see ur point but I will repost this ! "why? It looks like a badly formed ice cube made with brackish dir'ty stump water" And he says this knowing I am hopeful to get alot more this summer and spring ! I will add to this that I know it"s not the most exciting rock in the world to look at .... but up here finding any jasper or agate in any direction for 50 miles is extremely difficult ..And then theres the beauty I see in it that the picture doesnt show much of or what you dont see and i do in it .. As I said before I welcome constructive criticism and I want it to learn from it which is why I am here ! speak your opinion but name calling to something I already talked highly about is just plain disrespect and shows no dignity ... something I believe most of the members here hold in high respect ! I am a very well respected member here and theres a reason why ! A simple comment about the tella"s direction would have been very interesting to hear about ..If this thread was originally labeled super high grade slabs then I would see your point ... Everyone else Thank You .... And Iam looking forward to posting pictures of my Hellertown jasper cab one day soon! Greg
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onewomanarmy
has rocks in the head
Carpe Silicis!
Member since January 2007
Posts: 645
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Post by onewomanarmy on Mar 30, 2011 16:15:08 GMT -5
I've not been around much lately, so I don't have as much "ownership" over this board as those who are around more often but I tend to agree with Adrian et al. Not that Daniel needs me or anyone else to defend him - nor speak for him - and I'm not trying to do that - but it's my observation over the years that Daniel thinks differently than many. It's my impression that he's a very scientific, concrete thinker - not so much of a touchy feely kind of guy. I think sometimes this comes across as less gentle than most of us like. I think he's also a stickler for things to be stated accurately and correctly. Sometimes I think people post photos/plans/ideas needing a little tlc and support and "atta girl" types of things - sometimes we post to get true feedback on something. I think in general, most of us are more comfortable getting and giving the feel goods. Especially in an internet setting where we can't see the intentions of critical comments nor do we know the person responding in most cases. I think there's a place for both but know it's not always what we are looking for. I tend to be more touchy feely myself though and have found myself thinking at times that there may have been a better way to say what he was saying. Greg - I think your slabs are interesting - especially since I've been wishing for a larger saw myself. And I know that anything I've found myself is much more special and beautiful to me since I don't have many opportunities to do that. So, for me, it's a lot of fun to see what you've found and how it's turning out. I take Daniel's comments with a grain of salt and know that he's the guy to look for if you want a more objective opinion on something. Otherwise, I read knowing that there's a chance I'll get offended at his bluntness but hope to come out of it learning something. I don't see it as personal. Of course, I've not had him reply to anything I've made or done... I've also not made it to other threads so I don't know if there's a history with others who have responded. Just my observation of the different personalities on here. That's my $0.02 worth and I'm pretty sure you'd be lucky to get half that for it. Back to lurking and catching up.
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Post by NatureNut on Mar 30, 2011 16:27:09 GMT -5
You know, I have had alot of ladies who I would have sworn would go for the pinks and purples go for the earth tones in my jewelry. I'm just sayin'...
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Post by sandsman1 on Mar 30, 2011 17:09:32 GMT -5
well no need to bash the mod here rocpup -- i don't hold anybodies hand here and we are for the most part all adults we do have a few younger members -- so the way i fig as long as death treats or f-bombs aren't dropped i will let it go most times it fizzles out once everyone has said there piece and if it don't i might say something -- but mostly ill wait till I'm asked to help out -- like i said most times it fizzles out -- i don't know about others here but it seems to end better when all involved get to say there piece or you wind up with people holding grudges and it just starts right back up again -- if i see someone getting picked on for no reason ill say something but i think these guys are adult's and can handle there business just fine -- even if it would be better done in pm's
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Post by texaswoodie on Mar 30, 2011 17:37:56 GMT -5
Good post John. We're all adults, at least age wise. We don't need a bunch of Mods jumping in and controling every move we make. Can't stand the heat? Get out of the kitchen.
Curt
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Post by Donnie's Rocky Treasures on Mar 30, 2011 17:46:31 GMT -5
Well, said, John. I have been on the end of deb193's criticism myself & it has done nothing but spur me on to improve & tackle bigger things. But then I do have a thicker hide than most due to some previous training & I did ask for it! Not only has this been a hobby for me it has also become the beginning of a business for me. One that i dearly love & can never become bored with! In order for me to continue to improve I need the criticism & instruction because I can't get it anywhere's near me. I am probably harder on myself than deb193 could ever be!!!!!!!
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damammy
has rocks in the head
Member since January 2009
Posts: 697
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Post by damammy on Mar 30, 2011 18:11:01 GMT -5
Hey Roller, it so exciting to see your find and see it sliced, I like it and looking forward to seeing more, everyone can buy material but finding it yourself, well that is a true Rockhound. I thought this board was to encourage Rockhounds and to add helpful comments not slam them, and if someone pees in your corn flakes that day, Keep your comments to yourself as they won't be nice or friendly. Donna
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Post by Donnie's Rocky Treasures on Mar 30, 2011 18:17:24 GMT -5
Hey Roller, I just gotta say, at least you can go find your own rock!!!! Can't say the same for myself down here in the Florida Keys. You want some coral rock? Got tons of it, just can't do anything with it!!!!
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Post by deb193redux on Mar 31, 2011 10:06:07 GMT -5
Hmmm … some comment seems necessary, but I don’t want to spark any unproductive back and forth or otherwise needlessly prolong this business. I’ll say my bit and then leave this thread alone. Folks can add whatever they want, but I think I will be done with the thread. I have not been reading rocpup’s thread, so I do not know exactly what was said over there. I plan to leave that thread alone too. Or, possibly I will try to resurrect the topic of the differing challenges of differing material from differing regions, and that not every slab should be measured by its cabbing potential - the topic I actually wanted to discuss. Not sure what I will do there, may be best to wait a while for that discussion.
Adrian and several others seem wise, and in particular looked at the allegation and judged for themselves. Most remained civil – even if expressing some doubt about my discussion topics. This wisdom and civility was noted and appreciated.
Others just accepted alleged offenses as fact, or projected their own issues onto things. A few displayed extremely bad character and called names or assassinated my character in a manner 100-fold worse than any so called “crap” they purported to be responding to. Interesting. It would be more interesting if I was not the recipient of such disrespect and vilification, but still interesting … and very telling about the character of some members.
IMHO rocpup and roller had to reach a bit to take such a negative view of my opinions, but I was sharing thoughts that went against the prevailing wind of excessive and indiscriminate praise, so they did at least have a foothold in reality. They subsequently behaved very badly in my opinion, but I will own that when I seek accuracy, precision, or more genuine discussion, I might be confusing or irritating to folks who just want everyone to act the same.
IMHO roller missed the point that my criticism was of the folks withholding their honest feedback from him, not of his rock per se – although I did say that ice-cube-with-black-specks thing about that butt ugly agate. I might have been more sensitive to roller’s position while campaigning for more genuineness. I will also own that I seem to have let Robin's TASTY comment push me into a hasty post that does not seem to have served my agenda very well. On the other hand, roller did have to ignore the half dozen complementary things I did say, the sincere offer of some FREE quality cutting rough, as well as miss the whole “he deserves better” undertone of my post - but whatever. There are still good reasons to collect, cut, and even show less than attractive rock. Including fun, satisfaction, practice, the occasional surprise, or just the pleasure of community here – just no reason to go calling it TASTY and confuse those trying to learn about the spectrum of material. No reason to withold information about material cut in the wrong direction. That instead of discussing the reasons to collect and value local rock of a plainer variety, or asking me to clarify just what I was saying, that roller choose to harbor ill will, and then spring out with it now, and to stoop to calling someone a “dirtbag”, and to ask for “getting rid” of someone on a board which has never gotten rid of anyone – even when there were issues of spamming, or theft, or cheating. Well that says much more about roller than anything I said says about me.
Rocpup is newer here and in hindsight may have been unfamiliar with and unprepared for my usual style of saying my honest opinions, and deconstructing things (which really seems to bother Stefan), and discussing things openly, and expecting people to value the discussion and not to get defensive and go off half cocked. I still maintain that opinions expressed were not as negative as he claims, were not exactly different from ideas he had expressed earlier in the thread, and were certainly not an attack. I thought we were on the threshold of an honest and interesting discussion (I do need to reflect on how out of line my expectation seems to have been). But, rocpup CHOSE to see things in terms of conflict. He chose to take the most negative possible meaning from a remark about “price is right.” So what I meant as a celebration of rockhounding, an acknowledgement that working around a few imperfections might be preferable to buying rough by the pound, gets turned into a slur that was never intended or uttered. Having embraced conflict, he then chose to see things in only the worst way.
Stefan’s virulence and lack of civilty was a surprise. I won’t speculate about what his issues might be. Jake was unexpected, but less surprising. A frustrating exchange we had about vises, where he did not seem to be getting my point that I essentially agreed with him, but he had recommended the wrong part, now makes more sense. Robin is just pathetic. I had suspected him to be a bit of a narcissist with a tendency to snivel, follow the crowd, infuse sexual allusions into his postings, and to needlessly pile-on in disagreements; but I still tried to answer his questions about saws, or provide factual information about vises, or engage threads about superior side flashes even though I did not care for him personally. I now clearly see that he is as degenerate as I had suspected.
Moving forward I do not plan to stop my attempts to foster more level-headed and less gushing or empty feedback, nor do I plan to stop deconstructing things, examining the logical structure of advice or opinions, or just discussing things that interest me. I will endeavor to be more clear about the value I place on all kinds of rock, rock hounding, and RTH member activities – even as I opine that some things are average, while others are above average, and some ideas are brilliant while some do not seem to make sense. I will strive for civility, and would take it as personal failure if I ever stoop to the name calling, character assignation, and calls for lynching that some members seem to have festering just below the surface.
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Post by susand24224 on Mar 31, 2011 10:40:12 GMT -5
One more quick observation--there are people posting on this board who specifically ask for criticism. They should receive it and perhaps grin and bear it if the responder has little tact. There are also people posting on this board who are merely sharing, excited about what they have done/found, may be fully aware of the "problems" and yet wish to share photos, which is not only fun, it is encouraged. They have not sought criticism. Unsolicited criticism is the need of the person writing the reply, not the need of the original poster. Nowhere in Roller's original post did I see him ask whether he shouldn't "bother" cutting these rocks.
This is simply good "listening" skill, with a dash of politeness thrown in.
Susan
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Post by NatureNut on Mar 31, 2011 11:34:21 GMT -5
So... I guess this means you're not gonna start using the smileys... LOL
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quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,352
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Post by quartz on Mar 31, 2011 12:48:38 GMT -5
Hurray for susan, well said. Read this in very small print: My wife says "legend in his own mind."
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rocpup
spending too much on rocks
Pink Limb Iris
Member since March 2011
Posts: 465
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Post by rocpup on Mar 31, 2011 17:34:12 GMT -5
Susan You are right on with your commits. deb193redux still does not get it with his long answer for the world at large. I also did not want me or my material analyzed. I am twenty years senior to him. I have been working with rocks all my life. I can see right through this guy and he is a fraud. He is putting out one whole lot of mis-information. I do plan on coming back to the board but if he makes one commit on my post I will hound him. I tried to take my beef with him private but he refuse. SO BE IT.
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