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Post by helens on Jan 28, 2012 5:27:04 GMT -5
I just got my Lot-O vibrating tumbler and have a few questions because I'm so new to this. My first batch is very soft stones (opals, mica shist, glass, a few fire agates). The glass is mostly filler... just old marbles I have no use for.
I'm on the 500 grit phase of the tumble, and it's the 4th day. For the first 2 days, I used a 120/220 grit, then yesterday started the 500 grit. So far so good, but encountered some problems.
1. I used both glass marbles and smashed pieces of glass, some of which became as small as sand. Some of my flawlessly round marbles have developed tiny 'pits'. Now I was only using them as filler, but it was a chance to see what kind of job the tumbler was doing. Umm... something ate holes in my flawlessly round glass marbles. Why? I removed the fire agates, thinking that they might be causing the problems, but none have any sharp edges and are not small enough to cause the pitting. I thought maybe because the glass ground down on the smashed pieces to sand... can glass sand eat pits in flawlessly round glass shapes?
2. There are white stains in the creases of the stones once they dried. I saw someone else mention this, but did not see any solutions after the fact about what to do once it's happened (I know it's preventable by keeping the stones wet, but it's too late for that). I tried scrubbing off the stains with a wire brush, but as soon as the stones dried, it came back. Is the only way to remove them retumbling from the beginning again?
3. When I removed the fire agates at the 500 grit stage, I replaced them with mica shist, which should be softer than both the glass and opals. However they are very sharp, because I threw them in freshly smashed up. I thought running 24 hours would soften the edges for final polish (I don't mind that they do not fully polish or shape, as I am really using them as filler). Is it a good idea to run final polish with not fully shaped mica shist? I mostly want to polish the opals.
4. I used borax, and could not find soap powder. Could I use a few drops of liquid dish detergent (like Palmolive) to replace the powder? Is there a reason it has to be powdered soap? Thanks in advance for any help or advice:).
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Post by johnjsgems on Jan 28, 2012 7:38:26 GMT -5
Fire agates are agates so likely the culprits. If you were using a rotary I would guess the tumbler was underloaded. I've never seen a Lotto in action but all the vibes I've dealt with need to be full to operate properly. As far as the burnish, powdered detergent or Borax would be low sudsing whereas liquid dish detergents have sudsing agents to make them sudsy. Dishwasher detergent may be a better choice. If you live in a hard water area you may find using distilled water with the polish helpful.
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Post by helens on Jan 28, 2012 15:02:11 GMT -5
Great! I'll try dishwasher detergent instead of the liquid and distilled water too tomorrow after I wash this out. My tumbler was always full... that's why I topped it again with Mica Shist when I removed the agates, and they are nicely smoothed already after a day from the 500 (it's softer than glass), as are the opals.
I have it running the beginning polish right now with 1/2 tsp of 1000 grit and 1/2 tsp of Tripoli. I wasn't planning to wash the batch based on some other directions I saw in the vibrating section... but the glass isn't getting even a bit more shiny (all glass started out completely shiny, now are completely dulled once dry, like sandblasted). So I will probably wash it all out tomorrow and just run the final polish AO (from rockshed) with a bit of dish detergent.
Because of my oddly soft batch, I've done things a bit different from the directions posted, but everything over 5.5 moh has already been removed, so have my fingers crossed:). Thank you John, for the suggestions:).
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Post by susand24224 on Jan 28, 2012 23:08:06 GMT -5
What type of opals are you tumbling?
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Thunder69
Cave Dweller
Thunder 2000-2015
Member since January 2009
Posts: 3,102
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Post by Thunder69 on Jan 28, 2012 23:20:02 GMT -5
After your 500grit stage use borax laundry detergent...as its own stage for a day then go to polish... then do the same after polish stage....John
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Post by helens on Jan 30, 2012 6:11:49 GMT -5
Hi Susan:), I am tumbling Welo opals. They are not polishing.... so I removed the mica shist and threw in more glass. I think the shist was losing tiny bits and contaminating the polish:(.
John, that's what I did, used borax. I read that here, and what a huge help! It helped clean the crud out a lot. I think the initial problem was the agates were way harder so causing problems.... and I didn't remove the teeny bits, which ground into the glass like drills. Then I let things dry out so I could see how close to polish, and that's how I ended up with the film in the creases.
Still learning... I now regret throwing in all my opal specimens.... LOL!
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Post by helens on Feb 2, 2012 1:35:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice! Thanks to this forum, my opals came out great!! I would post some tumbling pix too, but I can't seem to attach more than 1 pix, so I attached a finished pix. The pile to the bottom right all have fire, are basic precious crystal welo. The bottom left are chocolate ethiopian, the middle left are contralux (they still have to clear), above them on left (with the green) are turkey opals, top left are glass that I didn't pick out before, and top right are opals that did not show any fire and still have to wait for drying to sort in case they are just common opals or matrix. Opal volume reduced by roughly 40% in the tumbler (this includes matrix and clay). They do not fully shine, this is about a 14K grit polish. I didn't want to keep going with the polish, they were in the polishing stage for 3 days already and I didn't want to risk cracking... the glass they were with were already shiny. I did this for a stress test on these stones before selling, carving or cabbing. If an opal can't withstand being pounded ferociously for 5 days, I wouldn't waste my hours cutting on it or expect anyone else to... so I'd rather break them BEFORE I put in my cutting time. Few things I learned: 1. do not tumble opals with clear glass, or you will spend HOURS sorting it... and hoping you found all the contralux opals. 2. tumble opals over 5 carats ideally, the vibrating tumbler seems to pulverize opals smaller than 2 carats, and cracked some 2-5 carat stones. I lost a gorgeous red fired honeycomb opal that was only 2 carats:(. The ones that were over 10 carats came through the best. 3. ONLY tumble opals with glass (colored, not clear). I started the tumble with mica shist and ended up cleaning out shed grains every 12 hours. 4. Don't tumble cracked opals, unless you don't mind the tumbler shredding them. Thanks for the help John and Thunder, and everyone else who posted info on Vibratory tumblers here. Without that help this wouldn't have been possible:). Attachments:
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Post by connrock on Feb 2, 2012 10:06:36 GMT -5
I've never done Ethiopian or Australian opals but have done few loads of common opal.I don't know how the hardness compares though.
Something that may help you the next time is to let the 1000 run for 48 hours before adding the Tripoli then let that run for another 48 hours before washing/burnishing.
Also I may be splitting hairs here but Borax is a mineral and is abrasive.I don't know what it measures in microns after it's dissolved but the mineral/abrasive content is still there.
You may want to try a powdered laundry soap such as Dreft or "grate" bars of Ivory Soap as a wash and or burnish? Don't use any laundry soap that has phosphates in it such as Cheer,etc.
After you've done you final washing with clear water give your opals a good wash in cols water and if you can use a STRONG" spray it would be even better.
Sometimes our tap water contains minerals which will leave water marks on the rocks.I've found that even using distilled water doesn't help this much so I have to hand wipe each rock with a paper towel to make sure there are no water marks after drying.
connrock
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Post by helens on Feb 2, 2012 20:49:22 GMT -5
Hi Connrock:). Your notes were among the most helpful in my searches for how to tumble. I really appreciated your help on the forum, even tho you didn't know you were helping me:P. What I did after reading John's advice is threw in a tsp of Cascade All-In-One dishwashing liquid. I was mostly worried that because Welo is hydrophane (absorbes water), that it might damage or chemically alter the fires... which it may have, time will tell as it fully dries (which can take weeks). I rinsed the opals in bottled distilled water, and they seemed to come really clean. Considering that you don't need to rerinse glasses out of the dishwasher... I figure that was pretty good advice:). Everything rinsed BEAUTIFULLY after that!! At the stage you see there, and not shooting for fire with the opals in that going white drying stage, you can't see much fire in my posted photo. I'll attach one while still wet right out of the machine in a jar below. The fires seemed like they'd be ok. The borax, I know is an abrasive... and I did not get a flawless glassy finish... but I'm overall pleased with the outcome. I figure the biggest reason I needed that was for the water softening ability... without which, not only would I have tumbler grit residue, I might also have lime deposits from the hard water. I also think that if I weren't so impatient, in 1 more day, I might have gotten the flawless finish. The clear glass that had turned very dull satiny in the other stages was almost a crystal clear finish again when I finished the tumble. Another reason I pulled them out is the opal superstition that full polishing is when they best like to crack. So if I stop a day short of a full polish, they won't crack? Well they didn't crack, so must have worked! ;D My only regret on hindsight was letting the opals run with the fire agates for a day first. That was the day I took the most losses on the opals. I got a bit carried away throwing as many opals as I did in, and got really lucky with the outcome. I hope when fully dry I'll be glad I did it. So far so good! Attachments:
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Post by connrock on Feb 3, 2012 7:24:07 GMT -5
I have a well and although my water is very soft for well water it contains a lot of iron,,,,,,,,,,,,funny,,,somehow iron and soft just doesn't sound right! LL
Anyway,,,I've tried Cascade,both powdered and liquid,with straight well water and distilled water,hot and cold and although using Cascade did help a little I still got water marks on my rocks until I finally made a high pressure spray system to give my rocks a final rinse. I also hang a fan over the rocks to help them dry faster while they sit,spread out on plastic screens.
I'm glad the distilled water works for you because water marks look so terrible on nicely polished rocks,glass,etc.
You've really got me thinking when you say that opals are more susceptible to cracking when they are being polished. My thinking is that the polish run is the most gentle of the entire process if done right? I use a lot of water when polishing delicate material which slows down the "action' in the barrel considerably as opposed to doing a "normal" load.
I bought some Ethiopian opal rough at the Tucson Show last year and couldn't wait to cut it. After I cut the first cab I almost fainted because all the fire was gone and all I had for my money and work was a small cream colored cab! LOL I came straight to the computer,did some research on them and was very happy to find that this can be a normal occurrence for Ethiopian opals! That cab sat for over 2 months before the fire came back and I was amazed at just how much fire it did have! I've cut several other cabs and they didn't "fade" nearly as much as the first and only took a few days to dry out again!
VERY touchy material to work with but it is beautiful.
Looking at the opals in you jar it looks like some of them still have a bit of the matrix still left on them? If so,this may cause some scratching if it (the matrix) contains any hard material in it.
If it is matrix,try "picking" some of it out with a hard metal scribe or even a big needle.Place it between 2 pieces of glass and rub the pieces of glass together. If the glass scratches, the matrix contains something that's harder then the glass and probably harder then the opals. If some of this matrix finds it's way into the polish it will cause the opals to not shine as they should.
Good luck,,,,,,
connrock
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Post by helens on Feb 3, 2012 9:14:25 GMT -5
Thanks Connrock:). I mostly bought the opals to do some glass experiments... I just got a bit carried away with how many I ended up buying... especially when I decided I'd like to try carving, and started going for BIG opals individually. Most of these came with lots and lots of clay, and I just got tired of picking the clay out. So you can say I bought the tumbler to clean the opals (and fire agates). But now I'm all excited about tumbling, and have no rocks. Thus, I'm trading for rocks in the swap section:). The turning opaque thing when first dry threw me for a loop too, I hope with some of my white pieces I have your luck! I know AT LEAST 2 of them are contralux after tumbling... something I would never have figured out had I not tumbled them. They are now COMPLETELY solidly bland white with not a hint of color... and those came completely white with no color, but I know they will clear later after seeing this (see pix below). I will do that matrix test, thanks for the idea! I didn't mind not having a full polish, because whatever I do with them, I will end up damaging the polish anyway. I just wanted to clean them up, and as many as I have, it would have taken months to get through just picking rocks off, so it was worth the attrition (not to mention much of the lost volume was the clay and matrix). Next batch will be fire agates ... that will be interesting too:). Helen Attachments:
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Post by helens on Feb 3, 2012 9:16:08 GMT -5
Oops. That was the wrong contralux pix, and it won't let me edit it off now... Here's the one I meant to post. Attachments:
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