xartic
off to a rocking start
Member since March 2012
Posts: 1
|
Post by xartic on Mar 29, 2012 13:39:37 GMT -5
searched the forum for "lubricate" == zero matches searched "lubricant" == zero matches searched "saw oil"... "Your search terms must each be 4 or more characters long"
Wondering if I can convert from using oil to using a water-based lube in our vintage 7" and 10" Lortone ST-10 saws? If so, would a glycol automotive antifreeze fit the bill, or must I use a special "commercial" lube (to avoid rusting the blade, or whatever).
Also wondering -- Is there a limitation, like, don't use water-based for blade diameter lager than xx inches, or don't use it for cutting material harder than X mohs?
Thanks in advance for advice on this
|
|
|
Post by jakesrocks on Mar 29, 2012 13:56:24 GMT -5
First off, don't use glycol based antifreeze in your saw. It's highly toxic. You can use the antifreeze that's made for winterizing the water systems in RV's. There is also a water- soluable lubricant called Lube Cool or Lubri Cool, depending on which catalog you look at. They say it's safe to use with saws up to 24", but in my opinion using it in anything larger than 10" would be pretty iffy. Any of the lapidary catalogs have it listed. You may also find it in a well stocked rock shop near you.
|
|
kevin24018
spending too much on rocks
Member since February 2012
Posts: 284
|
Post by kevin24018 on Mar 29, 2012 14:01:08 GMT -5
antifreeze is toxic I believe, althought I think it does have some rust inhibiting properties....good question never the less, i'd like to know as well.
|
|
|
Post by catmandewe on Mar 29, 2012 17:33:17 GMT -5
The automotive stuff is toxic, the stuff for RV storage is not supposed to be. There is also several additives you can put in your water that makes it slicker and lubes and protects your metal parts. Some is water based and some is oil based. Depends on what you are looking for.
I know a guy who cuts with antifreeze in an 18" saw, and he cuts almost every day. He gets the recycled stuff from an auto repair shop. He has used it for years and it does work, but his saw looks like it should not run, meaning as if I were looking to buy a saw and someone showed me that saw I would consider it a parts saw and not a very good one at that. He also tumbles with an old cement mixer that looks like it should not run also, but it works good!
Tony
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2012 17:40:20 GMT -5
I have long wondered if the large batch tumblers utilize cement mixers to do 100# batches.
|
|
Roger
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since August 2005
Posts: 1,775
|
Post by Roger on Mar 29, 2012 18:00:02 GMT -5
I use nothing but use recycled tranny fluid most repair pay people to haul it away.
Roger
|
|
LarryS
freely admits to licking rocks
SoCal desert rats
Member since August 2010
Posts: 781
|
Post by LarryS on Mar 29, 2012 18:17:33 GMT -5
I'm the only fool I know that doesn't use oil in a 10". I've used Lube Cool for about a year with mixed results. You will have premature wear on your blade. Latest batch of Lube Cool I bought must have been a bad batch because it foamed like crazy. Mixed in some "defoamer" purchased from Grainger which is a product for commercial carpet cleaning machines to keep the foaming down. Mixed it 1 oz to a gallon of water. Ended up mixing the Lube Cool instead of 10-1, 7-1 works better. Lube Cool protects everything from rusting but I spray everything down with silicone spray anyway. Moving parts have either marine grease or Anti-seize.
My first BD 303C blade lasted about 9 months of extremely hard use and abuse. My second blade lasted about 2 months but I abused it even more and made more cuts in the 2 months than I did in the previous 9. I'm laid off from work so I was slabbing almost daily. I was having defective Lube Cool issues along with using the wrong sharpening stone. I maybe got 500 slabs out of it? Don't know but a whole bunch. Think I hold the record with John on shortest blade life!
It was difficult to get answers from anybody because everybody uses oil. Made a few PM's to board members who use other products and different blades. Tried Borax which worked ok but not in a Covington 10" saw, which is a pain in the rear to clean out. Borax would work for daily use in something like a Raytech or BD where you can dump it out with ease. I can run the Lube Cool for about 5 days of use before the rock build up was getting high in the bottom of the tank along with the Lube Cool was so dark you couldn't see the lines while trimming.
Tried using RV & marine anti freeze which is the safe stuff for potable water systems. It's hot pink in color and can be purchased at any automotive parts store for around $5 per gallon. It's texture is just like automotive anti freeze, the poison stuff. It doesn't evaporate and where ever you dump it, it will stay muddy, for months! It's excellent for rust prevention. Cooling/lubing? No. Slabs would come off hot to the touch. I seen blade marks on the slabs. It would be excellent for trim saws if you didn't get it splashed all over you! Plus it misted real bad. I couldn't see inside the saw's plastic hood because everything was fogged up. They use this product for movie fog making machines in Hollywood. Use it in making ice cream and make ups too. Some colleges use it in large rock saws where they aren't allowed to use mineral oil. Covington told me they have a customer using it in a 36" saw over the past 20 years! I'd choose Lube Cool over it because you can mix it 10/1 and one gallon of Lube Cool will equal out to 10 gallons of oil. My saw only holds 2 quarts so that's 20 changes. It's biodegradable and safe to use except my dog is allergic to it. Had to find a new dumping site and make sure my dog isn't around when I'm sawing.
Lube Cool doesn't leave saw marks. I cut super hard jasp-ag, hardness of 7+ and max the saw out in size, feeding many by hand because they don't fit in the vise. I increased the pulley sizes and brought the speed of the BD 303C blades up to 2200 rpm over the old 1720, which helped drastically. Motor runs cooler and no slow downs or lock ups. I'm running a BD 303P porcelain blade now and it cuts great, which is made for water cutting anyway. Only problem it's noisy. Turn off the power feed and use gravity feed really helps.
You can buy BD 303C blades from John at JSGems for around $55 each. It won't break the bank if the blade wears out early, so what. Yeah you'll get more life using mineral oil but add up the oil costs and all the mega hours of labor you spend in the mess clean up, including yourself. You wipe the slabs off with a rag or rinse with water and you're ready to go. No soaking in cat litter, dish detergent, etc. No disposal problems, which is a big issue. Just dump the saw tank on the ground, hose out with a garden hose and you're good as new. Your work shop won't be dripping with slimy oil. Yeah, Lube Cool mists but it evaporates with no residue. I can't use oil at my location, period so I have no other choice.
Johnson Brothers sells the original Lube Cool but that is where I bought the bad batch. Kingsley North sells same product named Gem Lube. Diamond Pacific sells their version as Roc-Cut. Sorry for the long post but my fingers move faster than my brain!
LarryS
|
|
jspencer
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since March 2011
Posts: 929
|
Post by jspencer on Apr 6, 2012 0:20:36 GMT -5
I was told by a gentleman who ran a rock shop here for years today that 3M has a product he uses in his saws. I`ll have to get back to him to get the name since he and I were both on the run. It sells for $31 a gallon but it is then cut with water to make 4 gallons. For a cost of abt. $7.50 gal. He uses it in his trim saws and in his 20" slab saw. I`ll let you know what I find out.
|
|
Minnesota Daniel
freely admits to licking rocks
A COUPLE LAKERS
Member since August 2011
Posts: 891
|
Post by Minnesota Daniel on Apr 6, 2012 1:17:18 GMT -5
Ethylene glycol is used in cars and is toxic. It is sweet, so if you have a leak, pets and wildlife will eat it and die. Propylene glycol is non-toxic and is used to winterize RVs and swimming pools.
But... they also use propylene glycol coolant/antifreeze in vehicles that work out in the woods, like logging skidders, and in cars that race on ice, and other applications where a leak might poison wildlife. Peak makes a propylene glycol based coolant/antifreeze called Sierra for example. I am only speculating, but that kind of anti-freeze might be a better choice to experiment with as a rock saw coolant than the stuff used for swimming pools and RVs. It does contain corrosion inhibitors for example.
|
|
QuailRiver
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,640
|
Post by QuailRiver on Apr 6, 2012 11:26:00 GMT -5
Most of the time on all of my slab saws I use recycled electrical transformer oil which is just an industrial grade mineral oil. When I need to cut porous stones that would soak up oil I use Raytech's Raycool which is a water soluble coolant/rust inhibitor. Mixed one part Raycool to thirty parts water. This works well with most softer rocks but it's lubricating properties aren't that great so it's not a good choice for slabbing agates, jaspers and other hard rocks. Also even though it has a rust inhibitor, if you leave it sit in the saw for several days you will start getting some rust. I used to use Raycool with the trim saw too but have switched to using light food grade mineral oil for trimming slabs, but still use raycool for trimming turquoise, opal, and other porous stones.
|
|
bushmanbilly
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2008
Posts: 4,719
|
Post by bushmanbilly on Apr 7, 2012 22:48:53 GMT -5
Most of the time on all of my slab saws I use recycled electrical transformer oil I may be wrong and I hope I am. I was told by a electrical worker that some transformers have toxins mixed with the oil like pcb.
I use horse lax that i buy from the local farm supply dealer. I found that water based just turned into mud.
KEMA’s monitoring activities include the physical and chemical analysis of transformer oil.
Periodic checks are vital if transformers and other types of electrical switchgear are to be kept running and faults avoided. In this context, a number of analytical tests should be carried out on transformer oil at regular intervals. The findings provide insight into the quality of the oil and the condition of the system. Insulation oil in high-voltage transformers and switchgear should be analyzed in order to determine the value of the following parameters: - appearance: color and solid contaminants ( ISO 2049 / IEC 60422) - breakdown voltage (IEC 60156) - water content (IEC 60814) - acidity or neutralization value (ISO 6618) - dielectric losses / specific resistance (IEC 60247) - interface voltage (ISO 6295) - gas in oil (IEC 60567) - corrosive sulphur(IEC 62535) - PCB's - furans - analysis frequency (IEC 60442). KEMA has well-equipped laboratories in which numerous transformer oils are analyzed on a daily basis. The laboratory is ISO 9001 certified.
I would stop using your oil. PCB's are nasty.
A polychlorinated biphenyl (PCB; CAS number 1336-36-3 ) is any of the 209 configurations of organochlorides with 2 to 10 chlorine atoms attached to biphenyl, which is a molecule composed of two benzene rings. The chemical formula for a PCB is C12H10-xClx. 130 of the 209 different PCB arrangements and orientations are used commercially.[1][2] PCBs were widely used as dielectric and coolant fluids, for example in transformers, capacitors, and electric motors. Due to PCBs' toxicity and classification as a persistent organic pollutant, PCB production was banned by the United States Congress in 1979 and by the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants in 2001.[1] Concerns about the toxicity of PCBs are largely based on compounds within this group that share a structural similarity and toxic mode of action with dioxin. Toxic effects such as endocrine disruption and neurotoxicity are also associated with other compounds within the group. Therefore, the current maximum containment levels as stated by the EPA for PCBs in drinking water systems is 0.5 ppb[3]
|
|
Minnesota Daniel
freely admits to licking rocks
A COUPLE LAKERS
Member since August 2011
Posts: 891
|
Post by Minnesota Daniel on Apr 9, 2012 18:14:42 GMT -5
PCBs were banned thirty-three years ago. Recycled transformer oil purchased today should not have any PCBs in it.
|
|
|
Post by johnjsgems on Apr 9, 2012 21:11:32 GMT -5
I'm guessing over 33 years ago. I did lighting/electrical work in the mid 70's and all the new transformers and ballasts were PCB free. You had to worry about disposing the old stuff. I don't know about the big electric company transformers or how long they are in service or whether they would be PCB free. A friend in CO buys 55 gal drums of recycled transformer oil for $30. Pretty tempting but not worth the risk unless supplier can verify it is safe.
|
|
QuailRiver
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,640
|
Post by QuailRiver on Apr 9, 2012 21:53:29 GMT -5
I think it was back in the 1970s that they stopped putting pcb's in transformer oil. Currently, by law, the electric companies have to have all used oil tested for toxins before they resell it. So as long as the Electrical Companies are staying above board the recycled transformer oil they sell should be as safe as any other industrial grade mineral oil.
|
|
Minnesota Daniel
freely admits to licking rocks
A COUPLE LAKERS
Member since August 2011
Posts: 891
|
Post by Minnesota Daniel on Apr 9, 2012 23:23:23 GMT -5
Reselling transformer oil that hasn't been tested for, and found to be free of PCBs (and other toxins), is a direct violation of federal law. I seriously doubt a highly regulated public utility, would risk that.
On the other hand, if it said it was from China, it's probably not transformer oil at all, but actually recycled vegetable oil, but with toxic PCB levels. I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole!
|
|