electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Aug 29, 2012 6:54:21 GMT -5
1 - I have heard ppl using borax in every stageand heard some use it to just clean up. When is the appropriate time to use it and how much?(3lb barrel) From what I understand it "thins the watter" so I would think not to use it during grind stages or polish stages but only cleaning cycles. I know different ppl do it different ways but a general idea is all I'm looking for.
2 - I am coming up on day 7 of my first tumble and am going to check my stones to make sure things are progressing along as they should. Is there anything I should look for in particular?
3 - After the initial grind stage ho long should I run each sequential stage? I am using 60/90, 120/220, 500 aluminum oxide, aluminum oxide polish. It is what came with my tumbler.
4 - Is the 60/90, 120/220, 500 AO, and AO polish a good combination? The one that concerns me is the 500.
5 - By the way, the suspence of this first tumble is killing me lol ;D
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Aug 29, 2012 7:36:52 GMT -5
Everyone has there own recipe that comes with there own personal experience but here's what I go with on most rocks over 5 on the moh scale. all rocks go through 60/90 and each week I take out any that are ready for 120/220 and put them aside, then add more rough to get to 75 percent full again and keep running 60/90. After I get enough rocks pulled to make a full barrel of 120/220 I switch over to that. I run 60/90 as long as it takes (up to 10 weeks on some agates) then 120/220 for 7 days, 500 for 10-14 days with ceramic media added (some say 500 breaks down to 1000 after a week so then it works as a pre polish), then a/o polish with ceramic media added for 7-10 days. For the most part I only use the borax after my final polish to clean up the rocks and the barrel to help eliminate dried white polish in any fractures. I use 1 tablespoon of borax in the 3lb barrel. here's our last batch using this exact recipe. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?board=trtphoto&action=display&thread=54590Post pictures after your first cleanout! Chuck
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Minnesota Daniel
freely admits to licking rocks
A COUPLE LAKERS
Member since August 2011
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Post by Minnesota Daniel on Aug 29, 2012 12:21:07 GMT -5
Soap reduces surface tension. Solutions with high surface tension bead-up. You might say that soap 'thins" the slurry, but it's really more like making it slippery. It makes the slurry adhere to the rock better, a good thing.
I think you'll find that you're going to get about as many different answers about using Borax in tumbling as there are people using it. How it works, and how well it works, depends on the Ph and hardness of your water, and the nature of your slurry. That's different for everyone.
Hard water neutralizes the detergent faster. The opposite? Try rinsing the soap off you in the shower when the water has been softened too much. Borax softens the water and buffers Ph, so it helps to keep the soap or detergent you added working longer.
Borates bond with other particles to keep ingredients dispersed evenly in a mixture, which maximizes the surface area of active particles to enhance cleaning power. Ie. burnishing. Polishing too. I don't think coarse grit SiC is considered a particle in that context however.
So there is good reason to believe it might be useful in tumbling. Experience tumblers who use it must have found that to be the case, or they wouldn't be using it.
I use it in all cleaning/burnishing, and any slurry 500 grit or finer. In a 3 lb barrel I use a pinch of laundry soap and about a tablespoon of borax, but I don't bother to actually measure it.
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electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Aug 29, 2012 15:56:51 GMT -5
Ok that makes a little more since. I have hard water, "well water" to be exact and no water softener and since everyone's situation is different I'll just have to figure mine out. lol I'll experiment with it, it'll just take some time.(guess why lol) Also I had not thought about adding rough until I get enough to refill to 2/3-3/4 full in the next step. Thanks
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Minnesota Daniel
freely admits to licking rocks
A COUPLE LAKERS
Member since August 2011
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Post by Minnesota Daniel on Aug 29, 2012 16:50:52 GMT -5
Ok that makes a little more since. I have hard water, "well water" to be exact and no water softener and since everyone's situation is different I'll just have to figure mine out. lol I'll experiment with it, it'll just take some time.(guess why lol) Also I had not thought about adding rough until I get enough to refill to 2/3-3/4 full in the next step. Thanks Borax is useful for "boosting" laundry detergent when you have hard water. I suspect it will help you to add some to the barrel every time you recharge it. It's cheap, I've used 2 or 3 tablespoons/3lb barrel and I think it helped. Didn't hurt anyway.
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electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Aug 29, 2012 22:51:40 GMT -5
what kind of laundry detergent? Liquid, powder, any certain type or brand? Having hard water I am willing to try anything that may halp my tumbles turn out good.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Aug 30, 2012 6:09:49 GMT -5
A lot of people use Dreft. I'm not sure what makes Dreft better than other soaps, but that's what I've been using. The other option is Ivory, but you have to grate it first. I did that for a while, but it's easier to buy a powdered soap than to have to grate a bar of soap.
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electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Aug 30, 2012 7:14:47 GMT -5
Never heard of Dreft around here. I'll have to look for it lol. I jsut don't want anything that is going to leave a residue on my stones.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Aug 30, 2012 14:55:54 GMT -5
I had never heard of Dreft either. It's a mild soap used to wash baby clothes. It's a powder and comes in a short box.
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electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Aug 30, 2012 21:50:56 GMT -5
cool thanks
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Minnesota Daniel
freely admits to licking rocks
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Member since August 2011
Posts: 891
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Post by Minnesota Daniel on Aug 30, 2012 23:55:53 GMT -5
I doubt it makes much difference what you use, but laundry or dishwasher detergent are specifically made to not foam. If you don't already use that in the house, just get a small box of it (powdered of course) for tumbling.
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Post by pghram on Aug 31, 2012 8:35:47 GMT -5
Electricface,
I had once heard that detergents could harm the rubber barrels so I have never used them. I used to use ivory soap flakes but when it was discontinued I switched to borax (20 Mule Team) & it’s worked great for me. I think Dreft is also a non-detergent laundry soap as it too is aimed at the baby laundry market.
Peace,
Rich
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fwfranklen (Mike)
spending too much on rocks
Rock-ON--Have you kissed your rock today?
Member since August 2012
Posts: 379
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Post by fwfranklen (Mike) on Aug 31, 2012 12:57:26 GMT -5
SOAP vs DETERGENT: If your around my age you will remember the advertisements about ring around the bathtub. Well that was because soap leaves a ring and it suds's and soap is some what a natural process. Detergent is man made and they control if they want it to suds's or not and it does not leave a ring. So soap might leave a film on your rocks. DRY LAUNDRY vs LIQUID LAUNDRY detergent. Dry laundry detergents use a filler that absorbs the ingrediants that make up the detergent theny use celeous (saw dust kind of) this adds in the cushioning of the stones. Liquid does not. No this was told to me by some real old timers that was set in their ways. So take it with a grain of salt.
I use the cheapest liquid dish detergent one can buy for my between grit clean up. I use the boraz 20 mule team for the polishing and burninsh process.
I sue my rotory for the rough grind...those rocks that pass that stage, go into my ultra-vibe for the rest of the grit/polish process.
Just some F.Y.I.
Mike
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herchenx
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Member since January 2012
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Post by herchenx on Sept 3, 2012 23:47:06 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I only use soap occasionally after every other step.
Water and grit should be all you need for most of the tumbling process.
I use ivory soap that I shred with a cheese grater after my last polish as it gets any polish residue off the rocks and makes them shine.
I've used soap between steps and as part of a tumble stage, but for me it only adds steps and work to an already step-heavy process.
Just fwiw, not saying its a bad thing though.
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herchenx
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Post by herchenx on Sept 3, 2012 23:53:29 GMT -5
Also, responding to your other questions, I let my first grind (60/90 silicon carbide grit) go 10 days at minimum, then I clean everything and put it all back in for another 10 days with fresh silicon carbide, adding rock in to make sure my barrel stays 3/4 full. It is rare that I get any rocks ready for stage 2 (120/220) in less than 30 days. I know when they are ready because they have no pits or cracks in them, they are smooth all over.
At this point I need to jump off because I bought a vibratory tumbler (folks usually call them a "vibe") because it is much faster. I think in a rotary you want to do 14 days at 120/220, clean completely, 14 days at 500 aluminum oxide, clean completely, then 2-3 weeks in aluminum oxide polish.
I just started in January, and had completely wrong expectations, but patience and not settling for less than the best really pays off.
Good luck!
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electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Sept 4, 2012 16:52:30 GMT -5
Yes I had faster results in mind but I'm glad this board is here as I would be very disappointed with my results . I know I would have rushed through every step. I definitely would have given up. Someday I'll have the $ for a vibe tumbler, a drill press, and other rock creating equipment. but first I have to find a place for it all. I barley have enough room for my little tumbler. lol All in due time..... Until then I will ask tons of questions and keep rockin!(couldn't help the pun)
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