miryokutekikame
off to a rocking start
Member since September 2012
Posts: 10
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Post by miryokutekikame on Sept 21, 2012 10:34:30 GMT -5
I've been looking through different posts, sites, and looking at videos and pictures, and I've been compiling ideas on the best way to build my own rock tumbler. Well I have the design down now. And I figured out how to calculate with the pulley sizes, drive shafts, and barrels. It has come to my attention that it is not the ideal RPM of the barrel that I need to find, rather the ideal speed at which the rocks are moved.
So here are my questions to all you wonderful rock enthusiast: What RPM does your barrel run at when fully loaded? What RPM does your barrel run at when empty? What is the inside diameter of you barrel?(not the outside diameter) What brand and model is your rock tumbler? Is your barrel faceted or smooth?
I am looking for that sweet spot at which I need to get the rocks to move. I would like to be able to compile a list of data, plot it out, and arrive at a conclusion. Any and all help with this research will be greatly appreciated. Thank-you all!
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Sept 21, 2012 12:09:52 GMT -5
When I built my tumbler I just made sure my barrels were spinning near the same RPM as a store bought tumbler that used a similar barrel diameter. With a 1/3 hp motor empty and full barrels do not make a difference in RPM.
Chuck
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Daddio
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since May 2012
Posts: 94
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Post by Daddio on Sept 21, 2012 12:28:16 GMT -5
It is not so much RPM as FPM. The bigger the barrel, the lower the RPM. I think I read somewhere about 50-55 FPM.
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herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
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Post by herchenx on Sept 21, 2012 15:32:07 GMT -5
The following link is written by our local rockhounding club president Alan Silverstein He wrote way more detail than you probably want but it is how he built a truck-tire tumbler, including thoughts on speed, distance etc. silgro.com/RockTumbling/04_TireTumbler.htm
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fwfranklen (Mike)
spending too much on rocks
Rock-ON--Have you kissed your rock today?
Member since August 2012
Posts: 379
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Post by fwfranklen (Mike) on Sept 21, 2012 16:43:36 GMT -5
For a 5 gallon size barrel (50lbs) or the large used tire tumblers. The ones I've seen turn at 17 rpm.
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miryokutekikame
off to a rocking start
Member since September 2012
Posts: 10
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Post by miryokutekikame on Sept 21, 2012 17:03:34 GMT -5
Yes, yes, and yes. For the most part I know all that and read all that. But I never read anything about 50-55 FPM, I'll have to look into that. And the information I read implied that the empty RPM and full RPM was significantly different. Thank-you for your advice/replies. What I want to know is the average speed (or FPM) of several rock tumblers. So I can make sure I am operating well within the norm. It is important to note I am looking for the speed of the inside diameter not the outside diameter. I happen to think attention to detail matters. And since I can't seem to find any official data on the speed. I am hoping for the best alternative. I am trying to compile a decent sample size. So that the information I compile will average themselves out. This will help neutralize human error. Thank-you all, for your replies.
P.S. I will be looking for reference of FPM in regards to rock tumblers now.
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herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,360
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Post by herchenx on Sept 21, 2012 18:00:24 GMT -5
Before you worry about FPM and how precise it has to be, I have 3 excellent lortone 12# tumblers in my garage, all do a great job, and all 3 turn at slightly different rates.
I understand wanting attention to detail, but I think you might be worrying about a detail that won't be as critical on its own.
Everyone has been trying to give you useful details. Your comment - as read - suggests that others don't care about details. Folks around here are *really nice* and go out of their way to help each other. I've learned everything I know about tumbling from this forum and the helpful folks who have walked me along every step. You will get all the help you need so please be patient.
I would add that Alan's plans have a significant level of detail:
"Speed: 1 revolution in 6.3 seconds => ~9.5 RPM => 0.87 MPH => 21 miles/day."
The inner diameter on a 31" tire is probably 29"
Back to my Lortone's and the whole precision thing: the material you tumble, how big or small the pieces are, how viscous you keep your slurry, everything you do affects how things tumble. Heck even the temperature can have some bearing on how any particular load performs.
You can get as close on one detail as you like, however all the others still affect that.
I'd say get as close as is reasonable, then you will have to do what every person on here does - throw some rocks in and try out a few loads to get it right.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Sept 21, 2012 20:01:23 GMT -5
I agree with John, As long and as your within a +/- 5 rpm tolerence of ideal that would be fine. If you get too hung up on the little things like that than tumbling rocks might drive you crazy. Like John mentioned there will be a lot of other factors that will have a bigger impact on how each batch comes out. I actually have my upper level of my tumbler running 10 rpm slower than my lower level and I use the faster rpm lowers for 60/90 and 120 then for my 500 and polish I move up to the slower rpm upper, Its all a matter of opinion and each person tweaks their process to there liking. I think the most important thing is to pick one set of instructions and follow those from start to finish then decide if you need to change from there.
Chuck
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miryokutekikame
off to a rocking start
Member since September 2012
Posts: 10
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Post by miryokutekikame on Sept 21, 2012 21:24:55 GMT -5
I am sorry if i offended you with my comment. I did not mean that people here don't pay attention to detail. I'm sure everyone here does pay attention to detail, tumbling rocks requires it. But I tend to take things to extremes. I would say I am a perfectionist when it come to things like this. I need to plan everything from the biggest to smallest details like RPM, the motor, shafts, bearings, the placement of each screw and bolt, washer, rubber, keys, caulk, enamel, poly, stain, exact size of each piece of wood I actually have a list that I wrote down! (it's over a page long) Yes, I pay too much attention to detail. I am often told that I make things much more complicated then they actually are. But I wouldn't have it any other way because I think it is time well spent fretting over the smallest detail like this. I am a big believer in the "Get 'er Done" philosophy. "Get her done. Get her done right. And get her done right the first time, every time." I always try to do just that. I am not a big fan of winging it. I am very much by the books. And I'm sure rock tumbling will drive me up the wall. But that's okay. It will be worth it in the end. The great thing about rocks is that you can always put it down and walk away. When you come back the rocks haven't moved! Even if you leave them unsupervised. Again I am not saying that people here don't care about these things. I am just trying to let you know where I am coming from. All of the RPM figures I have found are all over the place, and not just from different barrel sizes. It doesn't give me quite enough confidence to buy all my parts yet. I am incredibly patient and I am in no hurry. I don't plan to build until it gets warm again, so next spring.(when it's safe to play outside with water again) I feel like I have all the time in the world to hammer out all the details and I don't mind taking that time. I'll be shelling out about three hundred dollars to get this started and I really don't want to be making any major modifications. I am not in any hurry. I don't really care if I don't get it built until late summer of 2013. I just want to be satisfied that everything is going to line up as well as I can get it. If I don't like the way the tumbler is running after it is built then I will tweak it. But until I am satisfied with my plans, in ALL aspects I will not move forward on this project. Not that I could if I wanted to now anyway. I have a few other things that I am hung up on as well, but those are fairly basic and I will have no problem figuring those out. I really do appreciate all the help I have gotten so far. And I am thankful to every one of you. I just don't feel very confident on how fast the shaft should be turning and I am hoping to gather enough intel to make me comfortable enough to pull the trigger if you will. Most people seem to measure by barrel RPMs. So, while this isn't what I want to know, that is what I'm asking for. I also feel that the inside diameter of the barrel is more important to what I want to know than the outside diameter. It may seem "crazy" or "over thinking" and your probably right. But I wouldn't have it any other way. Thank-you all for your time, MiryokutekiKame
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electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Sept 21, 2012 22:44:34 GMT -5
I am new to this and the reason I didn't build my own to start with is 1 - Building a new tumbler from scratch means still having some variables uncertain, being left up to trial and error through educated guesses. and 2 - Only having read about tumbling and knowing I didn't really learn anything about tumbling as a child and tumbled. I figured it would be tons easier to learn what I'm doing and what to watch for with only one thing to worry about. and As it turns out I was right. At least for me anyhow. More to it than just add water, grit and turn. Adding the other variables to the factor, like a home built tumbler, I would have likely given up. Just my thoughts.
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herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,360
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Post by herchenx on Sept 21, 2012 23:50:06 GMT -5
MiryokutekiKame, Nobody thinks you are crazy! Can I ask if there is a specific reason to build versus buying? You can get used 12# Lortone tumblers for $100 if you look (I've bought 2 for less) - and they are GREAT tumblers. Another reason I ask is that if you have $300 a vibratory would be something to consider seriously. The fact that you are looking at such a large tumbler suggests either 1) you intend to commercially produce tumbled rocks or 2) you want to try to get more rocks sooner. or 3 you just want the challenge of building one If #2 is the reason, you just really want to tumble and get lots of shiny rock, a larger tumbler may be a bit disappointing. I have a 65# rated tumbler that actually runs up to 100# of rock, and I ran that thing for MONTHS and never got the rocks to get all shiny. Don't misunderstand, this is a great tumbler and it did a great job on the rock, it's just that you have to get every rock in the batch completely done with one stage before you can move on. Larger tumblers means longer waiting. I prefer - MUCH more - to constantly run my 12# lortone tumblers for stage 1, then save up enough to run 10# or so at a time through the vibratory tumblers. With the rhythm I have now, that gives me 1-2 batches (15#-20#) per month and I get a shine that is tough to beat (although folks here kill me all the time - I'm looking at snuffy for $300 hardware cost you could order a Thumler UV10 from therockshed.com (~$200 when its in stock) PLUS I am sure you could find a used Lortone 12# if you look - I'd bet there is even someone on here who would sell you one. This setup would give you much faster turnaround on smaller batches, although 10-12# batches are by no means small! Please share, if you want, why you want to have such a large tumbler?
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miryokutekikame
off to a rocking start
Member since September 2012
Posts: 10
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Post by miryokutekikame on Sept 22, 2012 8:13:12 GMT -5
Oh, boy where do I begin. I guess the beginning is a good place.
Yes there is a specific reason I want to build my own tumbler. All three reasons, I believe apply to me. This is a long term project. That will be one of the crowning jewels in said project.
"What is my project?" you ask.
I am building a fire pit. Well actually it is technically built, but not officially. The fire ring is in the ground, the large rocks are around it, and I do have some gravel in place. Now the gravel is from what I can tell tumbled. It wasn't until I got them all down that I decided that there was too many broken rocks. So I started the process of sorting through them by hand. It turns out that half the gravel is broken. Now this isn't a glossy gravel or anything. I just want to get all the jagged broken pieces back into round rocks. I am not going for glossy, just shape. So I have somewhere around eight hundred pounds to work on, and growing because I plan to deepen the gravel. Now the fire pit is at our camping trailer, so I only get to work on it on weekends. And only in nice weather, when it is not too cold to play with water outside. So like I said long term project, no hurry. But I'd like to make this a feasible undertaking and be completely done in a couple years. I'm think that the total rocks that I wish to tumble will be closer to twelve hundredish. Of course knowing me I might want to polish them up later, but that is a looong way away.
So that is my story. A large tumbler just seems logical, in my own flawed reasoning.
Thank-you for listening,
MiryokutekiKame
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peachfront
fully equipped rock polisher
Stones have begun to speak, because an ear is there to hear them.
Member since August 2010
Posts: 1,745
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Post by peachfront on Sept 22, 2012 8:59:53 GMT -5
Really? For a fire pit? I would just have that tumbled stone delivered from Home Depot or Lowes or wherever it came from the last time I needed "yard" stone. You can get rounded stone commercially much easier than starting from scratch...You can order the grade of stone that you want. Don't order gravel. Get the rock garden grade. I don't know the technical terms but I know that it's cheaper and faster to have somebody just deliver the proper grade of rounded yard stone. It wouldn't make sense to tumble it at home and still end up with stuff you're putting in a fire pit after 1200# of throughput.
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herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,360
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Post by herchenx on Sept 22, 2012 10:47:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd just pitch what you don't like and buy some that you do. There is no way that the amount of time, energy, money and pain you are considering to get some rounded rocks is worth it.
You can have much nicer stone and can be more selective in the exact details of what goes in if you just go buy stone.
Certainly for gravel RPMs would not matter much.
I don't know you personally but based on previous comments I think that you're probably over thinking this. There is a much simpler way to approach this.
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miryokutekikame
off to a rocking start
Member since September 2012
Posts: 10
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Post by miryokutekikame on Sept 22, 2012 12:22:55 GMT -5
This was the best mix of rounded stones that I could find. They are beautiful. But I'm not going to throw away half of all the stone. We went to Lowes, Home Depot, and Menards. We ended up buying from a local landscape supply calle Schroders. The have an awsome selection. And I got what I precieved as the best. We drove all the rocks to our camper, 100 miles away from our house. I feel I am to invested in this project to just thow half it all away. To throw away the stones I don't like and just keep the ones I do I am looking at close to 1.5 tons of more rock to buy. Hope this explains a bit more.
Thank-you for listening,
MiryokutekiKame
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herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
Posts: 3,360
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Post by herchenx on Sept 22, 2012 13:05:45 GMT -5
I'll defer to others, tumbling takes weeks, so leaving something 100 miles away running seems impractical.
Fire near the rocks will likely cause breakage anyway.
Gravel will break down into too thick of a slurry so you will probably need to tumble dry.
I would go to a landscape supply and ask if anyone actually tumbles gravel or if they just quarry river rock to begin with.
I think you have a very specific vision and I hope you can find a way to get what you are after.
Good luck!
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miryokutekikame
off to a rocking start
Member since September 2012
Posts: 10
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Post by miryokutekikame on Sept 22, 2012 16:02:23 GMT -5
I do have a very specific vision. I would not be leaving the tumbler unattended. It would be at home where I can keep an eye on it. I'd be bringing batches home and running the finished product back out there. The gravel is actually about a foot away from the actual fire ring, so I'm not too worried about eventual breakage. It will be minimal and easy to stay on top of. If your interested here is a link to the actual type of gravel I am using. colouredaggregates.com/product-page.php?a_id=71&c_id=12&m_id=0&i_id=0&page=1Now this is the gravel I actually bought: www.schroedermaterialinc.com/p/1449/bagged-alabama-pebblesLike I said beautiful rocks, and I can't bring my self to throw out a ton of them. Thanks again, MiryokutekiKame
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quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
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Post by quartz on Sept 22, 2012 20:04:34 GMT -5
It seems nobody wants to answer your original questions, ones you have your right and purpose to ask. I did some measuring today, results are: 5-gallon double barrel set, 17 R.P.M. - 52.27 SFPM. Barrels made of 12" PVC pipe. 1 3/4 gallon double barrel [octagonal] running in tandem with speed reduction from first to second barrel, first barrel [rough & semi finish] runs 29 R.P.M. - 53.17 SFPM, second barrel [polish and soap run] runs 22 R.P.M. - 40.33 SFPM. Barrels made of UHMW plastic. 1 quart single barrel, 64 R.P.M. - 57.57 SFPM. Barrel made of phenolic. Our machines are all homemaders and we have fiddled a bunch over several years to get the speeds that work well for us. We tumble mostly quartz [or agate depending on your definition] and pet. wood. The little machine sometimes used for sunstones and obsidian. Inside dimensions are: 11 11/16" for the big one, 7" for the middle one, and 3 7/16" for the little one. Perhaps I can brag a bit. We have received compliment on our tumbling quality from several people with many more years of experience than we have, we, as in my wife and I.
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miryokutekikame
off to a rocking start
Member since September 2012
Posts: 10
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Post by miryokutekikame on Sept 23, 2012 8:40:33 GMT -5
Thank-you Quartz for the information. I really apreciate it. I already ran the numbers through and I am glad to see some consistancy starting to shine through.
Now I just need to find my big calculator so I can get some more precise calculations.
Thank-you ever so much,
MiryokutekiKame
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