electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Oct 10, 2012 21:20:35 GMT -5
I am having problems tumbling amethyst and citrine. The problem is I keep getting chips and bad fractures resulting in bad stones and really small stones from the breaks. This will make the fourth barrel I'm loading. I believe I made a mistake and added too much water so I have corrected that. I hope anyway. I have been adding plastic to the barrels. Maybe I'm not adding enough plastic? Could it be the water level? I was adding stones pellets water, then 4 tbs grit 2 tbs borax then topping off the water again. I didn't do that with my last load that is running right now. This time I added stones plastic water grit borax and that was it. The barrel sounds good so I have not messed with it in hopes that Things will go better. I did just empty barrel 2 and well you know what. And I wanted to throw the whole thing out the door. Please Please someone give me some idea on what is going on here. I'm not going to reload this one till I can come up with an idea of what is going on. Thanks in advance.
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The Dad_Ohs
fully equipped rock polisher
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Oct 10, 2012 21:49:37 GMT -5
If your rocks are all of near equal hardness then the issue is in your prep.
If you fill the tumbler 2/3 full of rocks, add ceramic/pellets to bring your bucket to 3/4 ( i use a mix of large & small ceramics), add water until you just see it starting to show at the edges, then add grit and tumble, you should be good...that's what I do and have not had any issues with it yet... do not add more water to it than just enough to barely see it creep up the side of the barrel... if you add too much the stones will not tumble correctly and you will get breakage as the rocks will float through the water without any abrasive to round them, instead of rolling through the abrasive mix.
If you want try this.... add 2/3 rock, water (just until you can see it at the bottom of the top layer of stones), pellets ( to bring it to 3/4 full), then grit. That way you know you don't have too much water in there which I think is still the problem.
The pellets have to cushion the rock as much as move the grit through and around the rocks. The only issue I have with pellets and this may be part of your problem too... is if you add too much water the pellets will float up and away from the rocks leaving them to bang into each other. You really only want to add enough water to create a slurry of grit & water that will coat the stones and grind them smooth... too much water will float the pellets out of the way and wash the grit off the rocks without grinding them down.
I generally use the pellets only for polishing rocks in my rolling tumbler.
Hope this helps!!
Keep the faith brother !!!
and keep us posted...it's not the easiest thing in the world but when its done and done right it is one of the most rewarding!! You can say "I did that!!"
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jspencer
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since March 2011
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Post by jspencer on Oct 10, 2012 23:27:28 GMT -5
If you do not have really good quality rough of either one of those you will wind up with chips and breaks. Quartz can be a bitch no matter what with varying hardness and tendancy to fracture away. If you see internal fratures in your rough it is likely to break apart in my experience.
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herchenx
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Member since January 2012
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Post by herchenx on Oct 10, 2012 23:45:53 GMT -5
TAKE HEART! I have done a bunch of quartz, and I take lots of pics, and have a lot of detail: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?board=trtphoto&action=display&thread=51279more in a 3# barrel: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?board=trtphoto&action=display&thread=51391for both of these **note the level I am filling to**. (underfilling can bash the hell out of your rocks). Also, note the quality of the rough. Does yours look kind of like this or is it all crackled? just so you know what is possible, and that I am not just making this up, here are some quartz results I've had this year: aventurine (quartz) citrine (quartz) smoky quartz: mixed batch (lots of quartz) rutilated quartz more aventirune (quartz) close up of quartz points and citrine points: rose quartz: mixed batch with "regular old white quartz off the ground" (this was actually my first batch after getting help here) a good slurry: I suspect bad starting rough like jspencer says, I've never had stuff come apart on me. Personally I don't ever use plastic. I tried once several years ago before giving up (until I found RTH!) but for me, they just make a huge mess, drive me completely crazy when I recharge, and mask other potential problems. I just make sure it is full enough to start, and I get decent rough (try therockshed.com or thegemshop.com), although I collect plenty of white quartz off the ground and tumble it with fine results (the kids always like to pick up the white quartz). Can you post pics of everything as you go? There is definitely a solution but the problem most likely is something simple you are overlooking and the photos do help. Hang in there Tony, once you get rolling you'll love it. We just need to rule out the possible problems until we find the culprit. RECAP: - make sure your rough isn't all cracked up to start - check your levels - take lots of photos and include as much detail as you can - hang in there, this is very do-able and you have absolutely the right attitude to make it happen.
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Minnesota Daniel
freely admits to licking rocks
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Member since August 2011
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Post by Minnesota Daniel on Oct 10, 2012 23:53:20 GMT -5
You also need to be sure to have enough smalls to keep the pieces of rough from smacking directly into each other with too much force.
Here's what I do. First I fill the barrel 2/3 full with rough. Then I empty it out and add back just enough to cover the bottom, and I add smaller rock of a variety of sizes to fill in as much of the space between the pieces of rough as possible. Then I add another layer of rough, fill it in with smalls and keep repeating that until I get all the rough back into the barrel.
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electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Oct 11, 2012 7:38:41 GMT -5
Those are nice stones John. I was going to take pics as I emptied everything this time but alas no batteries and my phone doesn't take pictures well enough to see. I'll go buy some batteries and take some pics of what I took out so everyone can see what is happening. I'll also try to take some of my rough. I think it looks fine but then again I am still new to this so I most certainly could be wrong. I have been mixing plenty of smalls in the batch as well a pellets. I try to balance out volume from small to medium with only 2-4 large depending on how large. Maybe I haven't gotten the slury thing down yet. Sounds simple enough. lol or so it would seem. I did mention I made a change in the way I prepared the load. Maybe that is it. Either way I'll get some pics up and wont start this barrel back up till tonight or tomorrow mornig. Ya know, so I have time to soak this all in. Forgot to mention....Every time I open the barrels I have lots of foam. Could that be causing the stones to crash into each other and chip or break? What could be a cause of the foam? Is the foam really anything to worry about? It is present on day 3 or 4 and days 8-10. Just about anytime.
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electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Oct 11, 2012 11:58:44 GMT -5
I have taken a pic of what results I am getting. Not all the stones are doing this but many are. These are the worst in the bunch as my camera wont get up close so I used the worst so you might be able to see. This one is an example of the rough I am using. These are medium to large in size. Taken for reason mentioned above.
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herchenx
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2012
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Post by herchenx on Oct 11, 2012 14:51:43 GMT -5
I think you are better off than you think you are.
Your rough looks good. Your worst rocks look fairly typical. They are rounding, they are appropriately "frosted" (as smooth as they get in stage 1) - the chipping I see looks like normal cracks in rocks that you have to wear through. You can probably remedy that with larger starting material (just SOME larger stuff, not a full load) - I can't get a sense of scale on these stones, but they seem pretty small. I tend to mix stones this size (1/2"-3/4") with some larger (up to 2") and some smaller (as teeny as you like)
I'd like to see the whole load, but what I see here doesn't look bad.
One thing is to be picky soon in the process with rock, meaning if something is showing fractures, pull it out and toss it in the rock garden and put in new rough. This saves tumbling time for better rocks and weeds out the ones that won't be great sooner. I don't recall where you get your rough, but if you find that a particular area tends to yield fractured rough you can avoid that area. If there has been blasting, for example, often the resulting rough will be fractured. Also if a supplier tends to have fractured rough don't buy from them for that material.
The foam won't hurt, but my experience is that foam happens when there is too much water. Are you tumbling 3# barrels? If so, try loading them 3/4 full and use 1/4 cup SiC and 3/8 cup water.
Keep it up man, I think you are headed in a good direction.
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The Dad_Ohs
fully equipped rock polisher
Take me to your Labradorite!!
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Oct 11, 2012 14:59:38 GMT -5
The rough doesn't look too bad, but if all your tumbling is medium to large then we have just found the problem...you need the variety of smaller stones to help cushion the bigger rocks as they tumble around ... they won't bang into each other with smaller rocks or ceramic material in there to fill the gaps left around the larger stones!! If you do not have smaller rocks to add, I would suggest small & large ceramics (the large or not really large, just larger than the small or medium ceramics!) to cushion and move the grit around... go to therockshed.com and get some they have it at good prices too. I always use a mix of the small & large ceramics and have had great results... I really think that is what you need to do to get it right... that's my opinion anyways.
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Post by susand24224 on Oct 11, 2012 15:11:46 GMT -5
I don't really see anything wrong with what you have been doing. I've tumbled a lot of quartz, sometimes with good results and sometimes bad. As jsspencer said, a lot depends on the rough. If it is smashed to break it up, or the process of mining was too rough, or the rocks were subjected to much pressure by their surroundings long before they made it to you, there is nothing you can do to fix the internal cracks. Some of these cracks show before you begin tumbling, some do not. Looking at the ones you took out of rough, I don't believe that anything *you* did contributed to at least some of those cracks.
Improper tumbling techniques cause "spalling" (surface chips that are kind of like a "scab", frosting, and small chips. Major league internal fractures I doubt come from your tumbling. Your upper right photo shows a spall--but it is not necessarily from tumbling.
Adding too much water decreases action, it shouldn't cause cracks. I don't use plastic at all; I use ceramics--up to 50% ceramics with brittle material (like quartz).
If you look at Herchenx's carefully, he has done a beautiful job, but he also has a number of internal cracks--so do we all when we tumble quartz!
Yeah, quartz is a challenge, but it makes it so much nicer when you get a few great ones.
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herchenx
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Post by herchenx on Oct 11, 2012 15:19:48 GMT -5
Good call Susan - yeah my citrine is pretty "crackly" but solid, the only quartz I've tumbled that has been mostly internally crack free was that smoky quartz, some rutilated, the clear points (they are pretty tough) and maybe a dozen aventurine pieces.
Just keep them in there and let them run and run, you'll start seeing some winners.
The only other approach you could try is to grind the quartz on a wet wheel (diamond is my preference) - and smooth it all out to get past stage 1. I've done this selectively, when there is a rock that has a spall or deep pit on one side but I want to keep more material in the rock - I grind out the spall or crack and smooth the rest out on the wheel. Nobody will bat an eye if you cheat a little, the end rocks are what we work for!
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panamark
fully equipped rock polisher
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Post by panamark on Oct 11, 2012 15:28:39 GMT -5
John: not to derail the thread, but what the heck do you use the cheese grater for during rock tumbling? See the last pic in your topmost post this thread. Most of my rocks are too hard to grate, ha ha.
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herchenx
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Member since January 2012
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Post by herchenx on Oct 11, 2012 15:41:30 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum panamark.
Once I progressed to a level 8 tumbler there were several secrets that were revealed to me that involve various kitchen accessories and food preparation techniques (some that are illegal in most US cities) that can be used on some agates to take the shine to the next level.
That's a load of crap.
When I burnish after polishing in my vibe tumbler I grate ivory soap into the barrel with the cheese grater.
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meta99
has rocks in the head
Ohio Flint Ridge flint
Member since October 2010
Posts: 540
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Post by meta99 on Oct 11, 2012 16:52:46 GMT -5
Tony:
The biggest shock for me after being given some nice chevron amethyst last August (2011) is that I am just now getting the last of it out of my tumblers!!!! It took MUCH longer than I thought it should!
Mine looked very crystalline to start (visible points like yours) so it took months to round out. During that time, a lot of chips fell off and they smoothed out. I thought I was doing something wrong because people on the board were talking about keeping stones in rough grit for a week or two. But then I realized they were tumbling softer agates or jaspers. When I threw in some other stuff with my quartz, I found they were finishing much quicker than the ammys.
Eventually, the quartz turned out quite nice. I now have a collection of some softer material that wouldn't polish but that's another topic for another day!
Keep on tumbling... Sue
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electricface
starting to spend too much on rocks
First fish of the day
Member since August 2012
Posts: 211
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Post by electricface on Oct 11, 2012 22:14:04 GMT -5
Thank you everyone for the feedback. Much appreciated. I pulled some of the stones that I thought were too far gone and I'm going to add the rest with some fresh rough and set her off again. It makes me feel better that the stones in my pics look more normal than I thought. I would have taken a pic of the entire load but I wanted the pic to focus on the bad ones. The rest of the load I got a few that were good and lots that still needed to tumble but were not as bad off as those pictured. However I think I'll be a little more picky on the stones I throw in. I'm sure it will pay off in the end. Besides I got plenty of spare time. I'll make adjustments taking into consideration all the good advice. Thank you again.
And just a side note I read the book on my camera and learned that my camera does have a macro setting. YAY! ;D
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jspencer
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since March 2011
Posts: 929
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Post by jspencer on Oct 11, 2012 22:29:18 GMT -5
John that looks like some good gravy in that barrel! I have done some really nice aventurine we find near here where it is in all colors. The reds are excellent. That consistency of a thick gravy is key to the process. I see some folks post comments in other threads on how they change out their grit every 2 or 3 days. I am glad I don`t buy the grit they use. Once it is right I leave it for 2 weeks or so. Let the grit do its job I think. I throw a small amount of rounded river pebbles in each barrel for smalls and the quartz in them breaks down to help make the slurry as well as pad the load and add a mix of size. I have seen a lot of citrine that has been treated for color and some not that has points but full of flowing fractures. It disappears in a week of grinding. Then you are left with mud.
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Minnesota Daniel
freely admits to licking rocks
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Post by Minnesota Daniel on Oct 11, 2012 23:33:19 GMT -5
If you don't already have one, get yourself a ten power hand lens. Take a close look at your rough. I suspect the big fractures are already there, or they are already started and maybe they are getting bigger with tumbling. Either way, the tumbling makes them a lot more obvious, and there isn't really anything you can do about that.
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herchenx
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Post by herchenx on Oct 26, 2012 23:36:45 GMT -5
yeah jspencer, the longer I do this, the longer I let my tumbles go. My last batch I kept in 60/90 for a solid 3 weeks. I'm also keeping it in the vibe longer, letting the polish run a solid 5 days at the end.
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