jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 18, 2013 17:21:01 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2013 17:36:54 GMT -5
I don't condone this action. But to accuse them of "destroying lands and rivers" is a bit over the top, dontya think? I mean, really? dictionary.reference.com/browse/destroyed?s=tde·stroy [dih-stroi] Show IPA verb (used with object) 1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate. 2.to put an end to; extinguish. 3.to kill; slay. 4.to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate. 5.to defeat completely. So the rivers and lands are useless now? Or useless fragments? Extinguished? Come on State of Florida. These guys broke your laws. No need to embellish them into the next universe.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Mar 18, 2013 17:53:36 GMT -5
I wish they would quit stirring up the law Scott.It is a war in Florida.Georgia is much more lax.I don't know what they tore up.I think they are more angry about them making money than the destruction.But i have seen bad damage that ruins the casual collectors rights such as mound diggers whom i despise.Either surface collect or do not collect.They come up on my shore at Lake George and dig in the 2 shell midden piles on my property.And gold dredges set up to run sand and gravity drop artifacts into catch buckets(like mine that was retired when the laws were created).For 5 dollars Florida will issue a fossil license for vertebrates,which is really fair.Again,surface only except the Peace River you can dig and sift. The abuse of a few will ruin it for others.Next action of state will be no more vertebrate fossils and then they will stop the invertebrate collecting(my coral!).
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Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Mar 18, 2013 19:56:13 GMT -5
Yeah, there are also people in Georgia who collect civil war artifacts in Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park and sell them. They go at night to avoid detection. The big prize is belt buckles, I guess.
Chuck
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Mar 18, 2013 20:48:17 GMT -5
Yep,that stuff goes on all the time and all over the place.I have a lot of respect for Florida wildlife officers-they are one hard working bunch of government officers.My camp is in central Florida,in the middle of the 300,000 acre Ocala National Forest.The 3 counties, Marion,Volusia and Lake county adjacent to the forest is a collecting area for felons from all over the country.Between them and the incredible lightning,bugs and leastly,the reptiles,you really have to beware of things. I live south of Atlanta and hunt arrowheads along the Chattahochee River.One rental horse farm was on a long slope to the river and eroded a lot.I would pay to walk and collect arrows but also found a lot of musket balls there.Dug moats lined the hill sides.Go up the river a ways and turn left up Sweetwater Creek and there is a red brick ruins about 4 stories tall.Nice long mill race leading into the building that was once a cotton mill where confederate uniforms were made.When we were kids we used to go there and party before it was a park.A man had a 40 gallon trash can full of cannon balls he had found w/metal detector.
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jcinpc
has rocks in the head
Member since April 2009
Posts: 722
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Post by jcinpc on Mar 18, 2013 21:45:09 GMT -5
When Judy Bense took away our Isolated Fiinds program about 7 years ago people were pissed. We could no lobger dive the rivers and collect artifacts. The state started this investigation 2 years ago and if you will notice, most of these frineds of mine who were arrested had websites and sold their purchased or found artifacts on their sites. This is about money being made that the state doesnt get, they are trying to throw tax evasion in with these charges. The state owns all the water ways here in florida, yes 1 guy was blowing the bottom of the river with his scooter, but is that any worse than these companies routing their waste water nto our rivers and creeks? not saying all of them were completly innocent but this whole bust is a waste of our time and money they let this go on for 2 years and had an informant in the group whop purchased alot of artifacts. There have been around 17 arrest so far and 1 diver commited suicide last week. this is total BS. they arent stopping the puritans of this hobby , just maling them go underground. The internet, in my opinion has killed alot of hobbies, people show their finds , where they found it and give away too much info. Before you know where you go is slammed with people who may not treat it the same as you do.These new shows on tv have ruined alot for most types of collectors..fossils and bottles will be next
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Post by helens on Mar 18, 2013 21:45:45 GMT -5
Wow. You know, I've seen people selling artifacts at shows. I am not big on animal fossils and/or tools, so I rarely look, but they sure were selling a lot of stuff. All I like are patterned rocks, if I found an arrowhead, I'd probably leave it there, since I can't see what I'd do with it.
Why would anyone WANT an old musket ball, arrowhead or shell casing, with no context of where it came from, how it got there, etc? Seems that knowing the history part is the thrill, not random broken bits and pieces with no association to anything at all. I've never been able to figure that out.
On the other hand, there's so many construction sites in Florida that tear up and destroy anything in the digging path that it seems people SHOULD rescue what's about to get crushed.
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The Dad_Ohs
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Take me to your Labradorite!!
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Post by The Dad_Ohs on Mar 18, 2013 23:53:46 GMT -5
The University of florida in Tallahassee, has the archeological rights to the entire state of Florida. As a resident of Florida if I wanted to go gather fossilized clams in watertown, or coral in Tampa... I have to get a permit through the college to do so, and I have to report anything that may be significant to the college who may come and take it away from me to study, and will smile and say thank you too!!. But this stuff these people did was unregulated and destroyed sites that would have been used to study ancient Americans to learn more about them and their habits. Florida has been above & below water many times throughout history and for this reason was never settled by any group of Indians... only nomadic tribes which stopped here for a bit then moved over there for a bit. Florida has the least understood groups of Indians living in it than any other area in the U.S.... This is why I don't bother with this type of collecting.. sure i may buy the odd piece of coral at a show, or a couple arrowheads to wrap. but I refuse to hunt and spend my time money, energy on something that someone will walk yup to me and take away and their nothing I can do about it.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 19, 2013 7:22:52 GMT -5
Guys like you jc,my diver cousin,me who loves to collect artifacts and coral should be allowed to continue this 'heritage' of surface collecting.The law men should crucify the ones tearing up the enviroment.Those criminals have been allowed to ruin collecting rights.And if people are energetic enough to pick stuff up and sell it then so be it.Just don't dig.Fossil collecting is still allowed on the rivers(including coral) as long as it is not state land and if it is a vertebrate fossil you need a $5 permit.That is fair.Many of the rivers have a solid limestone bottom and is covered by sand and solids that are constantly being moved by water currents.Artifacts are typically found in this layer.Fanning the bottom with your hands is common practice.It is similar to gold dredging,you are moving solids that are laying on solid bedrock in most instances.The state allows this fanning and even dig and sift on the Peace River because it is just a sand/gravel bar laying on indestructable limestone bed rock.Just like the miles of river bottom i collect coral and bivalves on.Outfitters are making money on the allowance of the state on the Peace River.Collectors can sell their Peace River fossils....Because it is harmless as long as collectors do not tear up the enviro.And most rock forums have a category for artifacts because rock hounds are eventually going to find one,some collect,some sell.Finding an arrowhead is a rush-adult or child.Saving them from the plow is the absolute best example of artifact destruction and site destruction.Please remove and collect the artifacts from a new field that is getting ready to see the plow.I bet 90 percent site destruction occurred in the farming days.The artifacts in my Georgia red clay are mostly broken.Back in the day Georgia was plowed and terraced.And an arrowhead sitting in our clay had no choice but to break when the plow busted the clay.I find rust marks on about every artifact i find around Atlanta where the plow left iron on it.And i find most of my artifacts when they are clearing land for Walmart or IBM or whatever development in the big city of Atlanta.Excellent sites.I have no conscience problems-that site is going to be destroyed and best get out of their way.Atleast get the artifacts out of there.Anything related to a burial should never be disturbed,i am only discussing loose finds when using the word artifact.
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jcinpc
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Post by jcinpc on Mar 19, 2013 15:24:56 GMT -5
first off The university of Forida is in Gainseville and they dont own any right, you just go through them and pay the $5 for a fossil permit. The state owns anything found in THEIR waterways. There is not 1 thng the Archs could find that would tell us anymorethan we already know. There are hundreds of thousands of artifacts in all these Universities and museums that will never see the light of day....how ya gonna learn from that? Warm Mineral Springs is an AWESOME Archealogical site that the University of Miami has the rights to to dive and study, the $100,000 it cost yearly to lease and run the program has been cut from their budgest, it will be for sale shortly...I have seen museums sell their collections to raise money to keep the doors open...this is a witch hunts and a money raiser for the budgets of all these counties law enforcement...notcie how the guys each got a double felony for the same charge? I know what happened and those involved, and it isnt what the media showed. This is my Sate and my heritage and I will learn it my way...that way no one can tell me an untruth
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Minnesota Daniel
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Post by Minnesota Daniel on Mar 19, 2013 17:40:49 GMT -5
"The state owns anything found in THEIR waterways..." Quite correct. The state is actually all of its citizens, and not an abstract concept, nor just a University of the state. "There is not 1 thng the Archs could find that would tell us anymore than we already know. " You are being sarcastic, right? "this is a witch hunts and a money raiser for the budgets of all these counties law enforcement..." Fines resulting from convictions for the violation of State laws are payable to the counties? "notice how the guys each got a double felony for the same charge?" You mean from the same crime, just like every other crime committed in America. Sometimes that does seem like overkill, but it's not the state attorney's fault. If he believes he has enough evidence for a conviction, he has to try the person for all violations. He doesn't get to pick and choose which violations to prosecute, and which to ignore. "This is my Sate and my heritage and I will learn it my way...that way no one can tell me an untruth" Are you saying you question the conclusions archeologists draw from their research?
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jcinpc
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Post by jcinpc on Mar 19, 2013 21:09:02 GMT -5
not a 1 Daniel, I actual do care what the Arch do and their mission here in Florida, I just hate it has always been an "us against them" type thing, the papered and non papered. This whole bust was involving the Arch`s but the State targeting some that had high profile websites selling said artifacts to whomever. If the State wants to keep OUR srtifacts in state then maybe they should start getting all of our stuff back from all the overseas and northern museums that CB Moore and Fran cushing and a bunch of other folks who came down here and dug them up and hauled them off
The State did start a great program a few years back called the FPAN, Florida Public Archeaology program, they worked with the public on their finds and invited them out to do digs. I have done the Great american Teach In for 17 years now and have had a good friend of mine and a FPAN Arch accompany me on these classes with power point presentation. He was the only "digger friendly " one out there, he has now moved to the great state of TX to do contracto Arch work, cant blame him. I have always gotten permission to dig sites I want to dig and prefere it that way instead of reading some report that has legalise in it I cant understand, they have and will continue to do great work and preservation but they are a small crowd limited to where they can perfom their work.....I as a member of the public am not hampered by these things and will continue to give pertinent sites I think need recording to the Archs inthe future....and you dont have to line my quotes up in reply I know what I wrote , my post is right obove it,whether it be in haste or anger towards what has happened here in MY state....I will rpely no more on this it is fruitless and wont change a thing
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 20, 2013 2:34:29 GMT -5
Forty years ago i worked on manhadden fishing boats as a kid off the coast of Florida.My Mom and several generations back settled on Amelia Island and my Grandfather ran the manhadden fishery. One of my jobs was gaffing sharks that got caught in the 3000 foot purse seine.They were 3-13 feet long and i used a 16 foot metal pole with a 6 inch gaff hook on the shark end and a loop on the other to hook the gaffed shark to the winch so i could have a meeting with him up top.I had a mallet for the hammerheads and a pocket knike for the bulls and the tigers.I simply cut the tip inch off the bulls and tigers,and mallet pounded the ends of the hammer's hammerhead.The tigers and bulls died because they could no longer smell with their little nose gone and the hammerheads died because their eyes popped out when the mallet hit. This was done to eliminate the sharks and keep him from tearing up the giant net.We would catch 100-300,000 poggies(manhadden)per trip.The fish were spotted by airplane-huge schools. Now there is a limit of one shark per day(for fisherman)and they are protected from such brutality.The poggies are pretty much left as food for feeding pelagic fish,sharks and whatever else.The poggies were used as fertilizer....later as protein supplement for chickens. Resources have been depleted.Old Florida has slowly dissapeared and heavy populations have changed the place drastically.Digging,development and all the other stuff has damaged Florida in many ways. But much of the jungle still remains,huge forest/wetland areas.Especially away from the coast.What an incredible place it still is.And the native Floridians have suffered negative changes.I have one cousin that still works at the manhadden plant-renting the docks out to deep sea treasure hunters w/their fancy subs,deep sea clam fisherman and other passer bys.It is what it is.
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Fossilman
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Post by Fossilman on Mar 20, 2013 8:59:22 GMT -5
I know a guy that was working in Wyoming and took some Indian artifacts from a cave.......He was caught and served two years in the state Wyoming prison!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 20, 2013 10:23:25 GMT -5
They will get you if they can Fossilman.And sites like that are rarer and rarer.Leave em alone.Two years would ruin a lot of people-stiff sentence.
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Post by Dicky the Rockhunter on Mar 20, 2013 10:29:56 GMT -5
Unfortunately that is up to the local ranger. . One day acouple of years ago was walking in the South Park , Co. with a ranger friend , saw a good specimen , he took a replacement from his pocket and took the one one ? Dicky
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 20, 2013 10:41:42 GMT -5
And state to state varies a lot too Dicky.The states w/more collectable resources are the states that have the problems-an almost proportional relationship.I am thankful that i collect fossilized coral;it is one of the least scrutinized in Florida and apparently never in my Georgia-yea!
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Tom
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My dad Tom suddenly passed away yesterday, Just wanted his "rock" family to know.
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Post by Tom on Mar 21, 2013 19:43:22 GMT -5
Fossilman did he know he was stealing? Was it from a park? Was he a smuggler? Stiff sentence! Up here in Canada you can get less for rape or murder. Stupid laws. 2 years for arrow heads 2 years for rape! Hmmmmm
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