mtj58
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2012
Posts: 20
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Post by mtj58 on Apr 18, 2013 12:35:48 GMT -5
Hi everyone... I had a question I wanted to post for those of you who have been through this before. Since tumbling, I have simply broken stones with a hammer/chisel. I decided this past winter to purchase a small Model T "Rock Rascal" saw/grinder combo. I only used it for the first time this morning....
I was after a small saw that could cut not so much specific shapes, but more to cut stones so as not to end up with so much waste. Although eventually I definitely want to start shaping the stones with the saw. Also was interested in pre grinding some stones in the hopes it wouldn't take quite so long to tumble.
Perhaps I was expecting too much. I had a piece of jasper, roughly 3/4" thick, 1 1/2" wide by about 7 inches long. I simply started cutting off pieces approximately 1/2" thick or so. By the time I had cut this stone into about 12-14 pieces, the saw blade was absolutely worthless. At first the stones cut beautifully, slowly getting worse until it literally won't cut at all. The blade had water to it at all times.
Which leads me to my question(s). Was I expecting too much? Are there blades you can purchase that will hopefully last much longer? I'm assuming there is, and if so I would really appreciate any recommendations. Or is this what I can expect from most all blades? If a blade like this cost as little as a few bucks it wouldn't be worth it. I have to think this is just a cheap blade provided with the saw that is not meant to last. Hope so anyway! How long can you expect a top quality blade to last, assuming there is such a thing? I also tryed the grinding stone. Pretty disappointed in that also, so wondering if better wheels are available that do a quicker job. I'm actually pretty patient, and I didn't really have my hopes too high, but just real disappointed with what I have seen so far. I'd appreciate any tips at all, or blade/wheel recommendations....Thanks! Mark
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Apr 18, 2013 13:01:18 GMT -5
I think you need to specify which blade your saw was shipped with. Kingsley north puts a pro-slicer blade on those and I don't think that's a good blade for trying to take slices off of rocks with. If your intent is to use the saw just to make rock tumbling slabbettes I would go with a mk-303 blade as thick as you can get. If you can't use oil then I would use a water additive like lubri-kool or something like that to help extend blade life. I use some of the pink non-toxic RV-Antifreeze in my water as a lube and rust inhibitor. I would check with forum member John at jsgems . If you message him on here or call him at the number on the website he can surely match up a blade to fit your needs. www.jsgemslapidary.com/lapidary-saw-blades/Chuck
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,563
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Post by jamesp on Apr 18, 2013 13:51:09 GMT -5
Mark-cutting these jaspers and agates may give you new found respect for what the cabbers and sawyers go thru to cut and shape this stuff.Saw blades for doing this work often last a lifetime when fed into the rock very slowly and w/proper lubricant and coolant.If agates/jaspers are pushed into a diamond cutting tool the life can be cut by 100's of times. And if you try to tumble too fast you will chip,bruise(frost)and fracture you rocks.So i am just letting you know that patience and more patience.I work w/a lot of local agate and it is the hardest shi hit there is.There is not really a fast way.
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Post by deb193redux on Apr 18, 2013 13:54:11 GMT -5
I agree proslicer will die quickly if used for anything but trimming. I also agree a light touch, and steady hand is important. A flat'ish spot on the bottom of the rock to facilitate even sliding helps too.
for your stated use, I would get a blade .04" to .05" thick, with lots of diamond, such as a 303c blade. I would also change either the drive or driven pulley to get about 3400 RPM.
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Post by johnjsgems on Apr 18, 2013 15:41:02 GMT -5
Rock Rascal saws come with a Proslicer. It is a plated thin blade that is pretty good for a plated blade. It wouldn't be a very good choice for slabbing or heavy handed trimming. You can use any 6" blade with a 1/2" arbor. The Green Chinese blades or BD303C .032" would both work better and be more durable than any plated blade. I don't know how wide a grindind wheel will fit the T. Most diamond wheels are 1.5".
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mtj58
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2012
Posts: 20
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Post by mtj58 on Apr 18, 2013 15:51:15 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the quick replies, very much appreciated!
Chuck...I honestly don't know what blade this came with. I removed the blade before any label could be worn off so I could get the numbers for when I needed to reorder, no label on it though. And...no instruction book came with the saw either which I thought was odd, then again I guess they are about as simple as can get. This blade it came with though was very thin, not alot to it, I figured this was more of a finish blade than anything....you answered what would have been my next question, I was going to ask about a lubricant also...I will definately get with John @ jsgems very soon, no voice now coming off a bout with pneumonia but soon as I get my voice back I'll give him a call for sure...
James....I definately understood what I was getting into for sure starting this....I've worked with concrete my entire life one way or another, and using alot of river rock in my mixes and having to cut joints in that, I know sort of compares to the agate materials. Cement soft, river rock VERY hard! Also have tried doing a little grinding with carnelian...wow that stuff is hard! I think I perhaps mis-stated my reasons....I have plenty of patience, only want to "hurry" what I can. By that I mean I have some carnelian that appears to be beautiful down under, but it is "honeycombed" alot on the outside, peppered with tiny pinholes that run around 1/4 to 1/2" deep. Been running a batch since Christmas Eve and I think it'll be mostly gone before I ever get a perfect stone out of it :-) But if I can find the right blade, and be more careful how I use it, and selective where and what I cut, I'm hoping to save more of the stones I am working with by pre cutting some of that honeycomb out and rounding a few edges. Other than that I'm sitting back and letting the tumblers do their thing....kind of enjoy the slow process actually!
deb193redux....now with all you guys throwing these things out, I am sure this most likely was a trimming blade....very thin, but not having been around rock trimming I just used at first what came with the saw. I will most definately try the 303 blade, and talk with John @ jsgems. You mentioned changing the pulley to get 3400 rpms....I'll try a different blade first, but may I ask, what size pulley do you go with to achieve the 3400 rpm's? Figure I better ask while I am thinking about it. I'd also be curious to know what the saw runs at now, guessing around 12-1500 rpms? Thats just a guess, I haven't a clue, I know it isn't real fast....
Thanks again everyone, very much appreciated. Mark
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mtj58
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2012
Posts: 20
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Post by mtj58 on Apr 18, 2013 16:10:38 GMT -5
John... Thanks for the followup....I must have been typing when you posted....and then I went over to your site and found the blade, had one other quick question for you, so I sent you an email direct. I'll get with you soon and get a blade or two ordered, Thank you... Mark
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keystonecops
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since October 2010
Posts: 957
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Post by keystonecops on Apr 18, 2013 17:10:09 GMT -5
Youll be happy with what John sends ya. Later Clyde
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Post by deb193redux on Apr 18, 2013 19:18:43 GMT -5
it is likely 1750 RPM, but that assumes you have a 1750 RPM motor and 1:1 pulley ratio. To go faster, make the drive pulley larger or the driven pulley smaller. You can google/use online RPM calculators.
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Post by johnjsgems on Apr 18, 2013 21:39:07 GMT -5
Diamond Pacific and Covington both have pulley charts in their catalogs. If the saw is new I would wait until warranty is up before modifications. Speeding up could void bearing warranty.
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mtj58
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2012
Posts: 20
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Post by mtj58 on Apr 18, 2013 21:49:17 GMT -5
I definately won't mess with it now at all. In fact more than likely the slower speed will be just fine for me, I just asked because you never know what will happen down the road....thought I'd better ask while the question was raised...thanks though...
Looking forward to the new blades John, thanks for taking such good care of me!
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Post by johnjsgems on Apr 19, 2013 11:59:30 GMT -5
Typically the 303 and newer 301 blades do perform better if run several hundred rpm's faster than the old blade charts list. You can go to Barranca Diamond web site and check their speed recommendations for 303 blades. The current 301's are same speeds as 303.
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Post by deb193redux on Apr 19, 2013 12:03:53 GMT -5
Yes, on reflection maybe 2600 RPM. I only mentioned 3400 because that is the speed of a lot of 7" tile saws, and those cut faster than my old Rock Rascal in my experience.
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Post by mohs on Apr 19, 2013 12:50:24 GMT -5
Good thread with lots of info
being that lot knowledgeable members are posting I have a related question
I want to get a thin kerf trim blade .030 or less to slice typical tumbled stone in half (to bookend together for rock'n hearts ) I have the Workforce saw.
is the speed on this saw to fast to accomplish a fairly waste free cut on such a stone?
would I be better off with a slower speed saw?
I don't want to invest in the blade if the saw isn't compatible to what I want to accomplish.
Right now I'm using MK .040 kerf blade I get good results and its been a long lasting blade
but I'm looking for a bit more finesse
thanks for allowing me to ask the question good luck on your rock projects Ed
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Post by johnjsgems on Apr 19, 2013 13:20:55 GMT -5
Is it a 10" saw Ed? If so, .030" would be pretty thin on a tile saw. It would be really easy to have blade deflect and possibly self destruct. If a 7", Barranca/MK has a 7" - .030" 303C blade that will work well.
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Post by mohs on Apr 19, 2013 13:29:39 GMT -5
Thanks John !!! Yes its 7" Workforce saw I'll be ordering soon
Ed
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Post by deb193redux on Apr 19, 2013 14:01:48 GMT -5
John's right that is a good blade. but I am missing the point here.
The difference between .03" and .04" is 1/100 of an inch. The benefit is in the added rigidity of the blade. Any benefit of reduced thickness has to be realized over many slabs from the same rock. I don't believe you will even notice the benefit on a single cut thru the middle of a tumbled stone. I don't think people can really see 1/100 of an inch with any reliability.
If it really is a thickness issue, go .025 and cut carefully. Otherwise , just get a good smooth (low chip) blade to get a quick clean low-stress cut. Don't focus on the 1/100 of an inch. By itself it is almost meaningless.
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Post by johnjsgems on Apr 19, 2013 14:37:39 GMT -5
Other than the .030" and .050" 303C lapidary blades all 7" tile, stone, and glass blades are very thick (like .067" or so). I don't know what .040" blade you have but if a 303C it is probably the .050" unless purchased recently as the ,030" just came out last Summer. I don't know of any lapidary blades in 7" from BD/MK thinner than .030". If you need thinner you could convert to 6" but you would need to set up a pump system to keep blade wet and build up the table.
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Post by mohs on Apr 19, 2013 21:55:20 GMT -5
well hundredth of an inch may not make a huge difference but it can't hurt either being that I'm free handing the slicing and am trying to achieve as equal of thickness halves as possible
I was looking at a Lortone trim saw 4 or 5 inch-- not sure with a really thin blade must be that .025 referenced earlier it was advertised for $320.00 bucks or so unfortunately, I don't have any more technical data on it
I assume that the saw speed on this Lortone is considerably slower than my Workforce tile saw ? is that a correct assumption? Ed
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Post by mohs on Apr 19, 2013 22:04:53 GMT -5
as an example where I think a thin kerf blade and perhaps proper saw speed would make a difference is in this ruby I want to halve mohs definitely
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