grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Jun 6, 2013 19:15:49 GMT -5
Today's Headlines NSA, FBI secretly mining data from Internet firms... 'THEY QUITE LITERALLY CAN WATCH YOUR IDEAS AS YOU TYPE'... Obama administration collecting phone records of millions daily... Secret court order requires VERIZON to hand over ALL CALL DATA... WH defends: Critical tool against 'terrorist threats'... Specifically targeted Americans, not foreigners... 'Homeland Security': Laptops, phones can be searched based on hunches... NSA SEES ALL: Phone Sex, Banks, Emails... Mining FACEBOOK, TWITTER to predict 'crimes'... CIA: We'll Spy on You Through Your Dishwasher... '1984' Published 64 Years Ago Today...
And in other news, Today is the 69th ann. of D Day. 600 WWII vets are passing away each day . . . Gone but not forgotten. I bet they didn't expect this country would end up like this. . .
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Jun 6, 2013 20:37:52 GMT -5
NSA taps in to internet giants' systems to mine user data, secret files reveal • Top secret PRISM program claims direct access to servers of firms including Google, Facebook and Apple • Companies deny any knowledge of program in operation since 2007 www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-dataOf course, us paranoid conspiracy theorists have known about this 'trend' for years. . . This PRISM is the child of the ECHELON Interception System which has been watching us since the 1960s. It grew with tech. . . has been watching the net since the 90's
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Post by helens on Jun 6, 2013 21:29:49 GMT -5
And every one of those companies called the article liars: finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-denies-giving-government-direct-000616461.htmlWhile I believe the Gov't absolutely would try to get their hands on everyone's private info... why would corporations give it to them? They wouldn't. Considering that they'd be giving THEIR OWN and their OWN EMPLOYEE's info to them too. Who would be dumb enough for that?
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Post by helens on Jun 6, 2013 21:34:35 GMT -5
The trend that none of these corporations heard of, Bill. Stated for the record to the press and categorically denied. You are talking about hackers and tech geeks here. THESE are the tinfoil hat guys. You must be kidding that they'd give the Gov't ANYTHING without a subpoena, and even then, they'd hold back everything they could.
The entire internet culture is about data sharing ... from Open Source Linnux to Warez to BitTorrent to PirateBay... not a darn one of them would give the Gov't ANYTHING. The author of that article clearly has zero understanding of either the internet OR the techie culture that completely pervades every one of these internet companies from start to finish.
I know a few engineers for some of these companies, and every last one of them used pirated software for years... that's Microsoft engineers who stole Microsoft products through pirate sites before they were hired.. and those are the people Microsoft HIRES... because they KNOW how Microsoft programs work (Microsoft has never ever released any of their source codes, nor has Apple. They want to hire the guys who can crack them. Google's even more funny about their hiring in terms of completely self-taught programing skills).
Or did you happen to forget the SOPA fight?
Or did you happen to forget that Google VOLUNTARILY gave up trillions of dollars, yes trillions of dollars, in China, just on the principal that China wanted to filter searches and access to data without a warrant? Google said screw you and pulled out of China completely. But they'd voluntarily do this for the US gov't. Never. I'll believe that when I believe that cows buy milk at the grocery store.
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I just read another take on PRISM... it's a program to collect information from foreigners.... and not a single phone company has come forward with a disclaimer. Phone companies are not internet, except to act as IP providers... so THAT might actually make sense and is possible, perhaps probable.
I just jumped on the internet portion, but if you spend 10 seconds thinking about it, if they had that kind of access, would there even be the possibility of child porn on the internet anymore? Who could filter that and not turn it over to the authorities asap?
But PHONE companies, MOBILE companies and internet PROVIDERS like Comcast, AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, T-Mobile... hrm. International calls would be pretty easy to trace.
Anyway, I rethink my earlier rebuttal, your premise may not be that out there after all.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 6, 2013 22:19:42 GMT -5
*L* I don't know if this one's fact or fiction but if I were playing Devil's advocate I would say one must consider "Prism" was supposedly a code word so why would any of the internet folks know that term ( code word implies secrecy afterall) Secondly, any internet folks who admitted they allowed such spying by the government would certainly be opening themselves to class action suit by their users for their participation in the conspiracy, so they would of course not openly admit too participation in the spying program. Thirdly, everyone is lying so much now that I pretty much doubt anything anyone in this ultra secretive government says. They were doing it with phones, they are probably doing it with the internet too *L*....Mel
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Post by helens on Jun 6, 2013 22:25:04 GMT -5
Well here's the thing... I wasn't thinking of it right before. Google, Yahoo, Microsoft own search providers... but they are not the internet. The internet are routers, servers and accessed through IPs... that's the ATT, Comcast, Verizon, etc. You and I do not buy our internet from Google or Microsoft or Apple.
And none of those IP providers issued any disclaimers... nor are they populated by hackers with the open source mentality at all.
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Post by helens on Jun 6, 2013 22:32:12 GMT -5
When I thought about it more... there are only a few main 'hubs' that every bit of internet traffic goes through I believe, maybe more but not a whole lot of them. When you do a tracert or 'ping', you will see these hub points.
I believe those are all physical locations. If the owners of those systems agree to let the gov't tap their main lines, that's it. All access, no need for any other company to approve or agree. They wouldn't know any more about it than we would.
Wow... the more I think about it, the more I realize how incredibly easy this would be to do, with the cooperation of just 1 or 2 companies, or even a handful of individuals, and no one else on the planet could even know about it. That's just nuts... Gaaaah!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2013 22:57:59 GMT -5
And every one of those companies called the article liars: finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-denies-giving-government-direct-000616461.html
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Major tech companies including Apple Inc, Google and Facebook Inc on Thursday said they do not provide any government agency with "direct access" to their servers, contradicting a Washington Post report that they have granted such access under a classified data collection program.
The newspaper reported that the U.S. National Security Agency and the FBI are "tapping directly into the central servers of nine leading U.S. Internet companies" through a secret program known as PRISM, and extracting massive amounts of data including audio, video, photographs, emails, documents and connection logs.
It named nine companies, including Apple, Facebook, Microsoft Corp and Google Inc, as having joined the secret program.
Google, the Internet's largest search provider, said that, despite previous reports that it had forged a "back door" for the government, it had never provided any such access to user data.
Never provided such access does not mean they did not participate.
Microsoft said it does not voluntarily participate in any government data collection and only complies "with orders for requests about specific accounts or identifiers."
Did not voluntarily participate does not mean it did not participate.
"We have never heard of PRISM," said Apple spokesman Steve Dowling. "We do not provide any government agency with direct access to our servers, and any government agency requesting customer data must get a court order."
did not provide direct access does not mean they did not provide indirect access
Asked whether Apple joined the NSA-FBI data collection program, Apple declined to comment beyond its brief statement.
Declined to comment??
The Washington Post reported that Apple held out for more than five years after PRISM enlisted its first corporate partner, in May 2007, for "unknown reasons."
"We do not provide any government organization with direct access to Facebook servers," Facebook's chief security officer Joe Sullivan said in a statement. "When Facebook is asked for data or information about specific individuals, we carefully scrutinize any such request for compliance with all applicable laws, and provide information only to the extent required by law."
Which is a fancy way to say "yep, we give them data".
Yahoo said in a statement that it "takes users' privacy very seriously. We do not provide the government with direct access to our servers, systems, or network."
Did not provide direct access does not mean it denied indirect access.
While I believe the Gov't absolutely would try to get their hands on everyone's private info... why would corporations give it to them? They wouldn't. Considering that they'd be giving THEIR OWN and their OWN EMPLOYEE's info to them too. Who would be dumb enough for that?
They would give it to them under duress. The could easily exclude sensitive business and employee data. I am sorry, but I fail to see how this is "every one of those companies calling the article a "liar". I ncluded your entire post so as to provide you with direct data that I read it, in it's entirety.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2013 23:00:12 GMT -5
When I thought about it more... there are only a few main 'hubs' that every bit of internet traffic goes through I believe, maybe more but not a whole lot of them. When you do a tracert or 'ping', you will see these hub points. I believe those are all physical locations. If the owners of those systems agree to let the gov't tap their main lines, that's it. All access, no need for any other company to approve or agree. They wouldn't know any more about it than we would. Wow... the more I think about it, the more I realize how incredibly easy this would be to do, with the cooperation of just 1 or 2 companies, or even a handful of individuals, and no one else on the planet could even know about it. That's just nuts... Gaaaah! And that post is a WIN!!
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Post by parfive on Jun 6, 2013 23:13:23 GMT -5
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Post by helens on Jun 6, 2013 23:47:19 GMT -5
Well Scott... you should read all my posts before replying... I do change my mind occasionally by the end... LOL! But I do appreciate that you read the long one:P.
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Post by helens on Jun 7, 2013 0:17:26 GMT -5
Well heck... look at this: finance.yahoo.com/news/nsa-collecting-phone-records-verizon-010806360.html"Verizon has declined to comment. It remains unclear whether the practice extends to other carriers, although several security experts and a U.S. official said that was likely. AT&T Inc declined to comment. Representatives for other major carriers, including Sprint Nextel Corp and T-Mobile, could not be immediately reached or had no immediate comment." Before the ink dried on the article... Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, Apple all tripped over each other to say, NO, we do NOT do that, we do NOT give the Gov't access to a darn thing... Yet.. Verizon, ATT and other major INTERNET PROVIDERS refused to comment... HRM.
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Post by helens on Jun 7, 2013 7:58:28 GMT -5
I just realized that the Gov't really wouldn't have to do much of anything to screen the internet. The internet ITSELF was built by the US Defense dept and Universities for data sharing and a backup in case of catastrophe. It was the individuals and the public who tapped into the Gov't system to begin with, not the other way around.
I guess the comparison is that the highway system was built by and still mostly controlled by the government and Universities, the on ramps controlled by ISP providers, the signs and directions on it the search engines. Can the owners of the highway screen cars without permission of the on ramps and sign builders? Um... of course. The question is why would they want to, not can they do it. I just realized that they could always do it.
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Jun 7, 2013 8:20:10 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 9:10:56 GMT -5
and as I understand it, google took the contract to supply at least some of the tech.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 9:26:47 GMT -5
The question is why would they want to, not can they do it. I just realized that they could always do it. I am up early. I'll be the first to ask. If they have the ability, then why would government NOT do it? Please do not tell me just because they can, does not mean they will. All government does is take freedoms away. That is what the US government has become. Here is a way to take a HUGE volume of freedom away and there is little to zero battle. Nor is the barrier to entry difficult or expensive. Why would they NOT?
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Jun 7, 2013 9:33:53 GMT -5
Scott, there is a reason Microsoft and Google are consolidating their sites, Windows live/hotmail if you have a Youtube account they made you get a Google account recently. . . Have you noticed that on Youtube if your username is a handle, they hassle you to change it to your real name. IMO, Google Chrome is spyware but more of like surveying software. Google is part of the NSA Anyone starting to smell coffee?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2013 9:36:22 GMT -5
Well Scott... you should read all my posts before replying... I do change my mind occasionally by the end... LOL! But I do appreciate that you read the long one:P. I can't. Many are tl;dr or in your case tm;dr - too many; didn't read.
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Post by helens on Jun 7, 2013 9:38:37 GMT -5
Google wouldn't do it, as I said, those internet companies would help the gov't crack down on individuals involuntarily, because they had no choice. But to actually ask one of their hackers, I mean programmers, to assist the gov't to do something tinfoil geeks would object to is as likely as a cow walking into a grocery store to buy milk. Any article that claims they would or has would need all their facts checked very very carefully, because that would be a lie right there. Clearly, the writer knows no one from any of those companies, they all nearly epitomize 'anti government'. LOL!
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Post by helens on Jun 7, 2013 9:40:26 GMT -5
You guys are funny:). To lump the 2 sides into one side is as bizarre as accusing the Confederates of spying for the Union... before the civil war. Uh... who would they be fighting?
I hope you don't conveniently forget that every single thing you are able to read on the internet is because one of those search engines, mostly google, allow their links to show and take you there. It would take literally nothing to block all pages they didn't want you to see so they never even showed up anywhere, ever. It would be incredibly easy for them to do, just drop a search term from search. Boom. No more right wing anything on the internet. Yet you accuse them of this after reading that stuff? LOL!
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