grayfingers
Cave Dweller
Member since November 2007
Posts: 4,575
|
Post by grayfingers on Jun 10, 2013 12:34:55 GMT -5
For those who may not be familiar with Naomi Wolf, she is an American author and former political consultant for Bill Clinton and then Al Gore. She has always been someone that conservatives have not though well of. . . until now and that is because she is not a hypocrite that seeks to distort and obfuscate. She wrote a book back in 2008 called "The End of America" It was made into a documentary. Wolf takes a historical look at the rise of fascism, outlining 10 steps necessary for a fascist group (or government) to destroy the democratic character of a nation-state and subvert the social/political liberty previously exercised by its citizens: Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy Create secret prisons where torture takes place Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens Set up an internal surveillance system Harass citizens' groups Engage in arbitrary detention and release Target key individuals Control the press Treat all political dissidents as traitors Suspend the rule of law Al Gore has come out against the data collection. Al Gore Calls NSA Phone Records Collecting 'Obscenely Outrageous' www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/al-gore-calls-nsa-phone-records-collecting-obscenely-outrageousI saw Naomi Wolf railing against it on a TV show yesterday. Turns out, she was on this last fall, and is intellectually honest enough to not defend Obama for that which she despised under Bush. The Fight to Stop Government Surveillance of Our Citizens By Naomi Wolf, Guardian UK 20 October 12 readersupportednews.org/opinion2/287-124/14092-the-fight-to-stop-government-surveillance-of-our-citizensThis is a link to the documentary, well worth watching. . . I have to say that she has my respect. www.snagfilms.com/films/title/the_end_of_america#.UKouEScjfco.email
|
|
|
Post by helens on Jun 10, 2013 12:40:59 GMT -5
I agree. Good post:).
I saw that light in 2004... realized just how stupid I had been before. When the blinders fall off, they FALL OFF. And no amount of whitewashing can paste them back on again.
How many times have I told you that I opened my eyes when I found out that Bush KNEW there were NO WMD in Iraq...
Last year, we had a huge argument about left vs right. Far right = fascism. Do you remember?
I hope you can't put the blinders back on again either. I have more hope for our future now.
|
|
|
Post by helens on Jun 10, 2013 16:06:13 GMT -5
Something dawned on me today... I have no idea if this is true, but it's starting to look this way:).
How do you expose something that people are 1. unaware of 2. those who are aware are not bothered by?
You make it worse... so bad that both sides demand accounting.
Either Obama is an accidental genius, or an intentional genius.
Upping the anty on US spying and secrecy, by doing more spying and more secrecy, forced the guys who started it all to worry that he's spying on THEM, and demand an accounting. This allowed him to open the book on the entire hidden program for everyone to see, just to comply with their demands. Oh My.
Reason I think this is the TIMING of his declassifying the very documents that the Republicans want the whistleblower's head for. The day after it was published. No matter what prosecution that Snowden faces now, it's going to get mitigated by the fact that he only exposed the 'secrets' the day before the President of the USA allowed them to be disclosed ANYWAY. Tell me that's not genius:).
|
|
grayfingers
Cave Dweller
Member since November 2007
Posts: 4,575
|
Post by grayfingers on Jun 10, 2013 16:11:05 GMT -5
Surely you jest. . .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2013 16:12:16 GMT -5
Bill her name is Helen not Shirley! lol
|
|
|
Post by helens on Jun 10, 2013 16:19:12 GMT -5
Surely you jest. . . I dunno, lets see what the Admin does next week or 2. Fact is, Hong Kong has an extradition treaty with us... but! The law is still not clarified, so there's the out ... China (which owns Hong Kong) wouldn't give a rats ass about 'human rights' and 'asylum'. They want happy trade treaties, if the US Admin wanted him, they'd deliver him. So, if he's not back in the USA in a week or 2, Obama let him go, using the Hong Kong excuse. I seriously doubt Congressional Republicans can force the Chinese to deliver him behind the scenes. It's possible, but not likely, unless the entire Congress was behind it, and they won't be.
|
|
grayfingers
Cave Dweller
Member since November 2007
Posts: 4,575
|
Post by grayfingers on Jun 10, 2013 16:38:32 GMT -5
The part I like is that both liberals and conservatives have split off into mixed groups over this. We have Michael Moore siding with Glenn Beck on the side of outrage, and Bill Crystal and Bill Maher defending it. I am not against targeted surveillance, as long as they target people by acting upon specific information, and with judicial oversight in each case. The bulk snatching and storing of personal data of American citizens in an arbitrary manner flies in the face of the very principles this country was founded on. You are not correct in your assertion that PRISM was declassified. The administration was forced to make a statement about SOME aspects of it after the leak occurred.
|
|
|
Post by helens on Jun 10, 2013 16:48:37 GMT -5
|
|
grayfingers
Cave Dweller
Member since November 2007
Posts: 4,575
|
Post by grayfingers on Jun 10, 2013 16:54:54 GMT -5
Helen, you are both gullible and hopeless. What they said was nothing more than an admission that they were forced to make. Period.
From the end of YOUR article.
"He said he cannot reveal too much detail about PRISM without giving the nation's enemies a “playbook” of how to avoid detection.
But he said he decided to declassify some information about the program to "dispel some of the myths and add necessary context" to the news reports."
|
|
|
Post by helens on Jun 10, 2013 17:02:47 GMT -5
Right. If that's not declassifying documents, what is it? And what would be the purpose of a program if they tell every terrorist how to circumvent the system?
What they told you was the only relevant part... WHO they are watching (international correspondences, not your calls to your beer buddy), WHICH types of information, and HOW they go about obtaining it: "The government "does not unilaterally obtain information from the servers of U.S. electronic communication service providers," Clapper added. "The notion that Section 702 activities are not subject to internal and external oversight is similarly incorrect. Collection of intelligence information under Section 702 is subject to an extensive oversight regime, incorporating reviews by the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches."
The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which meets in secret, approves the information collection and the providers know about it, Clapper said. The decisions are based on "a written directive" from Holder and Clapper, the fact sheet said. Eleven federal judges, appointed by the chief justice of the Supreme Court, sit on the court.
"In short, Section 702 facilitates the targeted acquisition of foreign intelligence information concerning foreign targets located outside the United States under court oversight," the fact sheet said. "Service providers supply information to the government when they are lawfully required to do so."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2013 21:04:52 GMT -5
Has anyone considered that they should not be doing this sh\t?
We are all caught up in the he said, they said, Helen said. All this when we should all be pissed they are doing it.
Those farging, corksocking, somanumbatchin' ice-holes need to get the aitch eeeee double hockeysticks outta our personal business.
What a frakken world we live in. Frak!
|
|
Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
|
Post by Sabre52 on Jun 10, 2013 21:51:46 GMT -5
*L* Am I mistaken or did I see a tape of Clapper lying about these programs before the whistleblowers dropped the bombs on them? Way I see it, is if he lied once he's a liar. Matter of fact, spooks are paid liars by profession, so cannot really be trusted, and his stories still contradict what Snowden is saying so, one of the two is lying. A let's see, who's the liar by profession who has already lied to us?. Errr, that would be Clapper would it not? *L*
Again, I don't think I'm comfortable giving up privacy for protection from the odd terrorist they might catch. Founding father Ben Franklin said it best:
Those who would give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." or something like that. My memory ain't what it usta be *L*. Wise man ole Ben...Mel
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,558
|
Post by jamesp on Jun 10, 2013 21:59:13 GMT -5
You are my hero grayfingersBill.I feel safe with your outlook and superior political insight.I vote you for President.
You simplify and filter.I follow your cool headed logic real well too.I will be your VP :>
|
|
|
Post by jakesrocks on Jun 10, 2013 22:05:01 GMT -5
Oh, and just to set the record straight, America does still have an extradition agreement with Hong Kong.
|
|
|
Post by Rockoonz on Jun 10, 2013 23:00:12 GMT -5
So Mel and James, If you're elected can I be secretary of the interior? At least the part with nice rocks in it. Lee
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2013 23:33:52 GMT -5
Bill POTUS Jim VPOTUS
Lee Sec. of DOI
Helen Press Secretary - she's good at saying lots of stuff without a lot of meaning. That is a great trait for the POTUS' mouthpiece. Plus she writes a lot so the speeches are taken care of.
Do they have a position for resident troublemaker? I am in.
Lee if you were Sec of DOI then you can collect Big Bend and take home a car's trunkload or decorative stone plus 250# of pet wood plus one piece per year. All without fear of prosecution.
|
|
grayfingers
Cave Dweller
Member since November 2007
Posts: 4,575
|
Post by grayfingers on Jun 11, 2013 7:28:57 GMT -5
Thanks guys, nice words of encouragement! I still have all my hair, and it is mostly still brown. That would change quickly. . . But, if it were to come to pass. . .
I would propose a law that would require a screening of the following film before voters may be registered.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,558
|
Post by jamesp on Jun 11, 2013 7:37:05 GMT -5
Obamafarm
|
|
|
Post by helens on Jun 11, 2013 9:13:58 GMT -5
LOL! I'd bet not a single person who posted on this thread watched the Naomi Wolf video. So funny:).
|
|
|
Post by helens on Jun 11, 2013 9:33:56 GMT -5
You should watch the video. It was made in 2008, no mention of Obama:).
|
|