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Post by helens on Jun 18, 2013 12:20:55 GMT -5
This is an incredible development... the Taliban has agreed to talks directly with the US: www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-to-relaunch-peace-talks-with-taliban/2013/06/18/bd8c7f38-d81e-11e2-a016-92547bf094cc_story.htmlThis is a big deal because one of the conditions of talking is that the Taliban accepts the US-installed Karzai Government and its new rules. This is the same Taliban that broke the USSR apart over 10 years of fighting, then the US picked up the gauntlet ourselves 10 years ago. It is almost inconceivable that they would agree to these terms: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22957819"However, the talks are on condition that the Taliban renounce violence, break ties with al-Qaeda and respect the Afghan constitution - including the rights of women and minorities. ... In the past, the Taliban have always refused to meet President Karzai or his government, dismissing them as puppets of Washington. Masoom Stanekzai, secretary of the High Peace Council, would not give a specific date for their talks but said they would take place "within days"." Pretty darn amazing if they can come to a meeting of the minds.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 18, 2013 16:51:15 GMT -5
I figure it's just like the Iranians or North Koreans going to the table to talk about nukes. It's just BS, stalling for time to further your program or reorganize. Fanatics like the Taliban are just that, crazy ass fanatics. They won't stop hating or stop wanting to kill us. They may claim to be thinking about it so we stop killing them for awhile so they can re establish themselves and recruit new members. To think they are serious is just stupid. it's like we're trying to be the Native Americans during western expansion and the Taliban the US government. Natives kept going to the table, always for a new treaty and hoping to be left alone, but we just kept on breaking treaties, taking territory, and killing them *L*. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.....Mel
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2013 17:09:24 GMT -5
How do you know when a Talibani is lying?
His lips are moving.
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rxscram
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Post by rxscram on Jun 18, 2013 17:22:35 GMT -5
The U.S. has dropped the precondition that the Taliban renounce Al Qaeda. That is now a "negotiation objective" for the talks.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 18, 2013 18:05:26 GMT -5
Muslims are not generally supposed to lie. However there are two things called kitman and taqiyye which allow lying in certain circumstances that advance the cause of Islam, one of them being "to gain the trust of non believers in order to draw out their vulnerabilities and defeat them"...Mel
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Post by helens on Jun 18, 2013 20:48:42 GMT -5
Of course they lie. We lie too. How do you think the Indians got so screwed?
We lie, they lie, then we enforce their promises... because... they're sick of us there killing their women and children. We have no downside in the negotiations, because if they don't negotiate... that's exactly where we are today. The skin's not coming off our noses. Remember... THEY are coming to the table. Sound familiar?
Why would the US Gov't be the Native Americans in this scenario... when um... this happens to be the exact same US Gov't that made treaties with the native Americans. This is the US Government making treaties with... native Afghans.
250 years of practice, you don't think we're good enough at negotiating?
And, we don't send elected politicians to do the negotiating... the people doing the actual negotiating are seasoned and trained career negotiating teams who've been at it for 20 years.
To expand... we had 3 conditions for them to come to the table: "Taliban renounce violence, break ties with al-Qaeda and respect the Afghan constitution - including the rights of women and minorities."
They have not agreed to break ties with Al Qaeda. What does that mean? They agree to the other 2. (a negotiator always leaves room for negotiation)
What do we want most from the Taliban? The last one... they will accept and live with the Afghan Constitution.
The fact that they came to the table means we won the biggest thing we could get from them already... without a word being said. If we manage to disarm them... well... that would be almost unimaginable, what's left for us to want from them?
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 18, 2013 22:16:29 GMT -5
Helen: I simply believe the current administration is gullible, as are you, and that in general, our folks don't understand the radical Muslim mindset, as it is so alien to our own. My Amerind analogy was simply to address that same issue. The Amerinds were gullible and did not understand the alien mindset of the US government. They wanted peace in most instances and wanted to be left alone. The US government, like the radical Muslims, never figured to leave anyone alone or in peace. To them it's either convert or die....Mel
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Post by jakesrocks on Jun 18, 2013 22:28:10 GMT -5
These "Talks" are already doomed to failure. The Taliban neither fears nor respects Obama. He has lost all credibility in the eyes of our enemies, just as he has lost credibility with our friends.
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Post by helens on Jun 19, 2013 5:37:43 GMT -5
Helen: I simply believe the current administration is gullible, as are you, and that in general, our folks don't understand the radical Muslim mindset, as it is so alien to our own. My Amerind analogy was simply to address that same issue. The Amerinds were gullible and did not understand the alien mindset of the US government. They wanted peace in most instances and wanted to be left alone. The US government, like the radical Muslims, never figured to leave anyone alone or in peace. To them it's either convert or die....Mel The folks doing all the 'talking' have been studying the Taliban mindset for over 30 years, I think they understand the Taliban mindset better than we do on a rock forum:). The US is committed to withdrawing from Afghanistan in less than a year. We have no skin in the game after that. What do we lose? When we leave, Afghanistan will be plunged into civil war again, with no talks. That's Afghan fighting Afghan. Afghans are mean. What do we lose, what do they lose? Common sense tells you that they have more to gain setting out terms for peace than fighting to the last man against their own people/neighbors, since their common enemy, US, won't be around to unify their fight. The Taliban isn't 1 group, it's a lot of different tribes, not all of whom agree with each other. Our talks are with only 1 faction, the other factions can fight on and probably will fight on anyway. But if we broker a deal with this group, the rest of the Taliban will get wiped out by the other Afghans. Again, we're leaving anyway. edition.cnn.com/2013/06/18/world/asia/taliban-talks-qa/?hpt=hp_c1What's your better idea? The US stay there for another 10 years, or fight on like Vietnam, undermanned, outgunned, and unsupported?
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Jun 19, 2013 7:17:57 GMT -5
Karzai furious with US over Taliban move, withdraws from talks... hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_AFGHANISTAN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-06-19-06-35-52KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- Afghanistan's president says he will not pursue peace talks with the Taliban unless the United States steps out of the negotiations and the militant group stops its violent attacks on the ground. Hamid Karzai is upset over a U.S. and Taliban announcement the day before that they would begin preliminary peace talks in Qatar without the Afghan government. ...The Afghan president on Wednesday suspended talks with the United States on a new security deal to protest the way his government was being left out of initial peace negotiations with the Taliban meant to find a way to end the nearly 12-year war. The move by Hamid Karzai raises tensions significantly and could derail the peace process even before it has begun...
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 19, 2013 7:49:33 GMT -5
Helen: I agree, after we leave, Afghanistan will plunge back into civil war, as it's dominated by warlords and tribalism. So why bother talking with them at all, just get out. Much as they often hate each other, they all hate our presence worse. Bargaining with them, which is usually just us trying to bribe them anyway, is just a waste of taxpayer money and time. Like long time Afghan experts say "You can't buy Afghans. You can only rent them.".....Mel
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Jun 19, 2013 8:09:50 GMT -5
Our enemies certainly do fear Obama and the USA...especially when it comes to the drone program and our rebuilt intelligence programs in the middle east. We have killed many enemies, especially terrorist types, many more than ever before. Much of it without "Boots" on the ground and needless US soldiers being killed
Negotiating with any of our enemies is difficult at best. If you have ever negotiated (or had an argument) with a Russian, an Israeli, an Iranian, or any Middle Eastern person, it can be frustrating or worse. Still you do it.
It is especially hard to negotiate with those that have religious fervor. How can a non-believer win any concessions from those who are fighting for God and have God's word. Still you do it.
Karzai is funny; he knows his position is tenuous and that he needs to dis the USA publicly to gain traction with Muslims and Afghan warlords. He has the Typical Middle Eastern "Bluster" but what he does and says to the USA in private is more meaningful.
As we have seen many times...be very careful about interfering in other Countries affairs. Once you go there, you tend to own it. The USA interfered in Korea around 1950; we are still there; we are no closer to solving the Korea problem now than we were then.
When the French were defeated in Viet Nam in the mid 1950s, we stepped into the void. repeated escalations and bombing them to hell and back remarkably had no effect on the outcome. After twenty plus years, we withdrew with our tails between our legs, but at least we had the good sense to exit that country and not waste any more innocent boys lives.
We interfered in Iraq inn the early 90's and we are still involved in Iraq and later Afghanistan.
After WW2 we occupied Japana and Germany and guess what; we are still involved.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 19, 2013 8:47:55 GMT -5
IMHO Karzai is just anther rent-a-crook Afghan warloard. He has simply has temporarily taken on the trappings of a more civilized man in order to toady up to US politicians and steal enough money from US taxpayer contributions and illegal activities to leave his country and live a comfortable life on the Riviera after we leave and his country again descends into chaos.....Mel
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Post by helens on Jun 19, 2013 9:17:41 GMT -5
Why bother talking at all? Because we have a stake in WHICH side wins, you know, the side that cost us 1/2 the new deficit we now owe. That's like saying, you spend 1/2 your life savings on healing a dog who was beat up by other dogs, and as soon as he's out of the hospital, you throw him back to the pack of dogs that tore him up. Why would you say that? Bill, I'm with Charlie, Karzai has to say that. In a few short months, Karzai will be alone. He HAS to build more support, even among those who hate us. He's got to start talking the talk NOW. That... and 'boycotting' talks is a face-saving measure... he was only invited by the US to participate, right now, the Taliban refuses to talk with him or acknowledge him anyway. Karzai's one saving grace is he hates the Taliban. They murdered his father and have tried to assassinate him numerous times: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamid_Karzai
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Post by Bikerrandy on Jun 19, 2013 20:00:25 GMT -5
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Post by Rockoonz on Jun 19, 2013 20:40:27 GMT -5
Maybe Bruce could negotiate for us.
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Post by helens on Jun 19, 2013 21:19:25 GMT -5
Maybe we can send Bruce over there to meet with that supreme Taliban guy. Might even save us a lot of effort if we thought that would make the rest of them go away... unfortunately, it won't.
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robsrockshop
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Post by robsrockshop on Jun 19, 2013 21:51:34 GMT -5
Crazy world. I'm going for another PBR. Not my beer of choice but was givin to me. I just looked the type they said. Jerks, ill drone your ass.
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Post by parfive on Jul 10, 2013 9:23:30 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2013 13:44:57 GMT -5
That's a great set of images. Thanks for sharing.
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