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Post by vegasjames on Jul 28, 2013 1:38:54 GMT -5
I slabbed up some of my variscite yesterday. Out of curiosity I also decided to try scratching the surface of one of the slabs with a piece of quartz. The quartz could not scratch the variscite. Interesting since one poster on here insists that the hardness of variscite cannot exceed 4.5 because he managed to find a site on the internet making this claim. So I wonder how he is going to explain how quartz with a hardness of 7 cannot scratch the variscite I have even though he insists it cannot exceed a hardness of 4.5? Could it be as I have kept trying to explain to him that variscite everywhere is not the same? As I have pointed out several times to him the variscite in parts of Nevada is not soft like 90% of variscite that has to be stabilized. Much of the Nevada variscite has a higher silica content making it much stronger and more stable. I even played his little game and tested the stone for the presence of copper. I did as he said and put some concentrated HCl on the surface of the stone and let it sit for three minutes. Why he insisted I do this is beyond me since this does nothing. Variscite is virtually insoluble in HCl. And it will not test for copper as he claimed the test was for. The results? There was no change in color of the acid and the surface of the stone was completely unaffected. So I took the test a step further, so I could actually test for the presence of copper, which is not a component of variscite although variscite may contain copper ores in some cases. I re-wiped the acid the same swab then put the swab in the flame of a torch, which if any copper had dissolved in the acid would have yielded a bluish-green color. The test did not show any bluish-green flame thus proving a lack of copper and the fact that this stone that is much harder than 4.5 is in fact variscite. As additional proof I ran a second test. I decided to heat a small slab of the variscite, which gave the characteristic color change seen in the heating of variscite though the loss of water content. Here are the pics. The two pieces on top of the large piece was the slab I used, which cracked in half during the test. So you can see the green color from the original slab in the right piece and the color change from loss of water in the left piece. The large piece underneath was not heated other than by nature. Yet we can see the same exact discoloration in the unheated stone, which is a characteristic of variscite. Variscite also becomes more soluble in HCl when this color change occurs. So I repeated the experiment with the HCl putting HCl on the discolored surface and letting it sit for a several minutes: This time though I took a piece of wire and heated it in the torch first to vaporize any coating that may be on the wire. After the wire cooled I dipped it in the acid on the surface of the stone then placed the wire in the flame. If copper were present this would show a bluish-green color: As we can clearly see there is no copper present in the acid once again proving that this is not a hard copper ore but rather variscite like I have been trying to get across to this self believing know it all poster.
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Post by deb193redux on Jul 28, 2013 1:45:33 GMT -5
I read varisite is MOHS 4.5. could there be a harder mineral mixed in?
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 28, 2013 3:06:50 GMT -5
I read varisite is MOHS 4.5. could there be a harder mineral mixed in? Yes, I posted several times in another thread that some of the variscite here in Nevada contains a high levels of silica that increases its hardness considerably and stabilizes the stone. Normally about 90% of variscite needs to be stabilized. The variscite coming out of several areas here in Nevada do not require stabilization at all. It is solid, very hard and takes a great polish. Here are a few of my first cabs. I did both of these out of variscite I collected here in Nevada: In the second stone you can see the small amount of turquoise running through it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2013 9:14:30 GMT -5
If a stone with one name and certain minerals is called, say xxxxx. Then you add a bunch of silica and it drastically changes the hardness of the stone it is probably called yyyyy. This happens in many many stones. What is the difference between agate and chert? You have a stone that you want to call xxxxx for some reason but it does not have the same mineral makeup so it has to be yyyyy.
I have a huge array of stones here that have no name so I give them a name. It looks to me like you need to do the same. How about varisilicacite since that is the mineral makeup of what you have.
BTW How many cockroaches have you stepped on with your high and mighty shoes? Jim
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 28, 2013 10:50:08 GMT -5
Jim,(wampidy), it's obvious what's going on here. vegasjames is trying to bait me into carrying our argument in the mineral ID section all over this forum. Just goes to show his lack of class and respect for all of the good members on this forum. You're 100% correct Jim. Anyone with even the most basic knowledge of mineral properties knows that given enough silicon dioxide infiltration, the acid test even if full strength HCL is used, is useless. Any copper contained in the specimen will not leach out to be detected. Also, to properly perform the flame test, platinum wire must be used. They must pay EMT's an awful lot in Vegas. I certainly can't afford a piece of platinum wire. webmineral.com/help/FlameTest.shtml#.UfVG-W1N7xMThat being said, you're using the wrong bait vegasjames. I'm not biting. I'll have no further comments in this or any other of your postings, and would appreciate it if you not comment on any of mine in the future.
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 28, 2013 15:58:25 GMT -5
If a stone with one name and certain minerals is called, say xxxxx. Then you add a bunch of silica and it drastically changes the hardness of the stone it is probably called yyyyy. This happens in many many stones. What is the difference between agate and chert? You have a stone that you want to call xxxxx for some reason but it does not have the same mineral makeup so it has to be yyyyy. I have a huge array of stones here that have no name so I give them a name. It looks to me like you need to do the same. How about varisilicacite since that is the mineral makeup of what you have. BTW How many cockroaches have you stepped on with your high and mighty shoes? Jim Ah, Don's knight in shining armor to the rescue again. So Sir Knight, answer this question for me. Opal is considered silicon dioxide and water. Yet it is well known that the higher the aluminum oxide content within the opal the harder the opal becomes. So what is an opal called with a relatively high aluminum oxide content? Seek and find the answer Sir Knight and you will see the error of your ways.
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 28, 2013 16:14:32 GMT -5
Jim,(wampidy), it's obvious what's going on here. vegasjames is trying to bait me into carrying our argument in the mineral ID section all over this forum. Just goes to show his lack of class and respect for all of the good members on this forum. You're 100% correct Jim. Anyone with even the most basic knowledge of mineral properties knows that given enough silicon dioxide infiltration, the acid test even if full strength HCL is used, is useless. Any copper contained in the specimen will not leach out to be detected. Also, to properly perform the flame test, platinum wire must be used. They must pay EMT's an awful lot in Vegas. I certainly can't afford a piece of platinum wire. webmineral.com/help/FlameTest.shtml#.UfVG-W1N7xMThat being said, you're using the wrong bait vegasjames. I'm not biting. I'll have no further comments in this or any other of your postings, and would appreciate it if you not comment on any of mine in the future. :DYou amaze me. Someone points out the games you are playing such as baiting people in to your arguments and all of a sudden you project that on to the other person. Not the first time I have seen you project though. Also interesting how you told me how to perform the test even though I already CLEARLY stated about the high silica content giving the stone its hardness. Then after taunting me in to playing your little game I ran the test just as you told me to. And since the conclusion did not fit your need all of a sudden your story changes to oh, the test will not work properly due to the high silica content. What an imbecile!!! By the way your excuses do not hold water. First of all the silica would not be trapping the copper as you are falsely claiming so yes the test would still work just like it would work on silica hardened turquoise. Secondly, platinum wire is not the only wire that can be used in a flame test. Nichrome wire can also be used. If you would get off your lazy ass and spend a little time doing some actual research rather than assuming you already know everything then maybe you would have known that fact. This is a good example of a large part of why the U.S. is so far behind in education. Those who are interested in learning and actually take the time to do the research and learn are attacked and criticized for doing so. While the self proclaimed know-it-alls that don't know even half of what they think they know get a free pass and knights in shining armor to back them when they get busted making crap up. Since Don does not know how to do proper research let me help him out: www.chemguide.co.uk/inorganic/group1/flametests.htmlAnd look the flame test can even be performed with cotton swabs as I did the first time or wooden splints: www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CGUQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.soinc.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fuploaded_files%2Fflametest.pdf&ei=moj1UYfNMoG49QSenIH4Dw&usg=AFQjCNHTpBpPrYFH8i_ugqHaB4LKS0X-MQ&sig2=RlnC17Z5R5Jl6iYVZRTKLQFunny what one can find and learn when they don't already know everything like the almighty Don!!!!
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 28, 2013 16:52:53 GMT -5
Platinum wire is the approved wire used in lab tests when flame testing for mineral content.
It's very clear for all to see that you have never before performed a flame test. I won't explain the proper procedure because you, if you're so smart, will already know how. Now run off and google it, so you can show us how smart you are. As for me, I'm finished with this and all further conversations with you. You no longer exist.
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 28, 2013 17:24:46 GMT -5
:DI knew you could not help yourself. Now look at the evidence I already posted before you just stuck your foot in your mouth again. You just refuse to honestly admit that you can be wrong. All hail the mighty Don, king of all knowledge.... Only person to ever get everything right..... Projector extraordinaire..... Self proclaimed expert on everything he knows nothing about since he refuses to do research because he already knows it all.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 29, 2013 11:52:05 GMT -5
If you would go back and read, instead of just running your stupid ass mouth all the time, I did not, AND I REPEAT, DID NOT even mention doing a flame test, until after you had already stated that you had done one. I stand by my words. You don't even know how to properly perform a flame test. Go back and read your own words on how you did your supposed flame test, then do a little research on how to properly do one.
And speaking of research, you might want to research what others have said on this forum before claiming they said things which they did not.
Oh, and just a couple little facts that your "research" didn't seem to turn up. Nichrome wire has a melting point of almost 1,000 degrees lower than Platinum. And in the flame test, Platinum is the catalyst needed to perform the test. Just as platinum is needed in a cars catalytic converter. Nichrome doesn't seem to contain Platinum, now does it ?
END OF SUBJECT.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 29, 2013 12:15:39 GMT -5
For those who don't know how to perform a mineral flame test, it took only a few seconds on google to find this description of how to properly perform the test. Procedure description: Students use a hammer and chisel to break small chips off specimens. Chips are crushed with a mortar and pestle and the dust placed in a Petri dish. A few drops of 10% hydrochloric acid are dropped on the dust and stirred around. A platinum wire loop is dipped in the mixture; a small amount of solution adheres to it. Placing the loop in the fl ame, students see a colored fl ame for a few seconds. Some elements give characteristically unique colors in the fl ame and thus the fl ame test yields clues to the elements making up a tested specimen. Clean the loop between tests to avoid cross-contamination (clean the loop by dipping it in clean acid and then heating it in the fl ame, repeating until no more colors are generated by the loop) www.mineralseducationcoalition.org/pdfs/Tested_by_Fire.pdfI have posted this as a courtesy to our members who may wonder what the purpose of a flame test is.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 29, 2013 12:53:40 GMT -5
I stand corrected (partially) on one point. It seems that now Nichrome wire is accepted for this test. However, Platinum is still the the wire of choice, and test results may differ between the two.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jul 29, 2013 13:10:43 GMT -5
Another interesting test is the Borax bead test. And once again we find that a Platinum wire is recommended. Rather than going into a long rambling description of the test, I've provided a link to an easy to understand description of the test. chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa010102a.htmSimilar tests can be performed with a wooden splinter, or a cotton swab, but are more tricky to perform, and not as reliable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 15:47:05 GMT -5
Don, I would think that no matter what was used as a carrier for the flame, if cooper were present a distinctive blue flame would be obvious.
In following the known facts about this stone it seems we may have an equivalent for "gem silica" but not chrysocolla in origin.. I agree the color for variscite is not perfect. To me that points to locality specific impurities. I also think what James has is a very interesting rock. Very clearly not pure anything, so it's a rock. Pretty as it is.
James, have you done anything to rule out that this is a blue/green jasper?
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 29, 2013 18:24:48 GMT -5
If you would go back and read, instead of just running your stupid ass mouth all the time, I did not, AND I REPEAT, DID NOT even mention doing a flame test, until after you had already stated that you had done one. I stand by my words. You don't even know how to properly perform a flame test. Go back and read your own words on how you did your supposed flame test, then do a little research on how to properly do one. And speaking of research, you might want to research what others have said on this forum before claiming they said things which they did not. Oh, and just a couple little facts that your "research" didn't seem to turn up. Nichrome wire has a melting point of almost 1,000 degrees lower than Platinum. And in the flame test, Platinum is the catalyst needed to perform the test. Just as platinum is needed in a cars catalytic converter. Nichrome doesn't seem to contain Platinum, now does it ? END OF SUBJECT. If you read what I wrote you will see that I first ran your test, which proved there was no copper present. I then decided to run an additional test, called a flame test, to confirm my first findings. The only reason you are so pissed off is because your test and my confirmation test both proved you wrong that this was not any form of copper ore.
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 29, 2013 18:34:20 GMT -5
Don, I would think that no matter what was used as a carrier for the flame, if cooper were present a distinctive blue flame would be obvious. In following the known facts about this stone it seems we may have an equivalent for "gem silica" but not chrysocolla in origin.. I agree the color for variscite is not perfect. To me that points to locality specific impurities. I also think what James has is a very interesting rock. Very clearly not pure anything, so it's a rock. Pretty as it is. James, have you done anything to rule out that this is a blue/green jasper? I am simply going by what several people who know a lot about rocks told me. I gave several people chunks of the rock to examine, and one person took a piece to someone else to test. What tests they ran I don't know because I did not think to ask. What they came back with is that this is variscite. As for the color, variscite is not one color. It can range from light green to dark emerald green and even non-green colors such as red. You can see some of the other colors of variscite here: www.dakotamatrix.com/mineralpedia/8086/variscite#!prettyPhoto I had also found another site that sells variscite that also pointed out that the variscite they were obtaining from Nevada was higher in silica and thus making it harder and more stable than most variscite. But the main thing that also leads me to believe that this is variscite is that upon heating it changes color in a characteristic fashion that variscite is known to do as it loses water from dehydration. I doubt green jasper does that although I do have some green jasper outside so I can test it to see if it does.
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 29, 2013 18:36:23 GMT -5
Don, I would think that no matter what was used as a carrier for the flame, if cooper were present a distinctive blue flame would be obvious. Yes, you are 100% correct Scott. Just like copper salts can make green colors in fireworks despite all the other material present and the lack of platinum wire.
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panamark
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2012
Posts: 1,343
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Post by panamark on Jul 29, 2013 19:00:57 GMT -5
At the risk of getting mud spattered on me, getting back to the stone I gotta say that first cab looks like one of those gorgeous photo's of deep space from the Hubble telescope. You can sure send me a sample and I can confirm what it is or ain't. Actually I can already confirm it is gorgeous!
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 29, 2013 19:05:42 GMT -5
Scott, I just went out and tested some green jasper. I heated a piece with a torch and all that happened is the piece fractured. Heating did not alter the color in any way though as, which happens with variscite and as happened when I heated a piece of this stuff I was told was variscite. Since the heating of that piece produced the same color as other heated variscite I am inclined to believe that this is indeed variscite. In addition, as I pointed out earlier turquoise is known to occur with variscite in some localities. If you look at my teardrop cab you can see what looks like a thin line of turquoise running through the stone. In fact, there is a mine that has copper minerals in pieces I found in the tailings less than a mile from where I am finding this stone. And as I have found variscite ranges in various shades of green including the dark green I have seen in this stone. And it shows the same shades of green as of the other variscite I have seen such as this: www.lithos-graphics.com/stones/variscite1.htmlTherefore, based on all the evidence, including examination and testing by people who know a lot more about stones than I do, I have no reason to not believe this is not variscite.
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 29, 2013 19:09:49 GMT -5
At the risk of getting mud spattered on me, getting back to the stone I gotta say that first cab looks like one of those gorgeous photo's of deep space from the Hubble telescope. You can sure send me a sample and I can confirm what it is or ain't. Actually I can already confirm it is gorgeous! I agree, I love the stuff. I first started practicing cabbing on Tiffany stone, which is generally much softer. So it was quite a difference when I started working with this, but once I got used to it I really liked working with it. If you want to play with some PM me an address.
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