rolanstones
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2013
Posts: 95
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Post by rolanstones on Aug 25, 2013 11:59:09 GMT -5
I am new here, a complete newbee to rock tumbling. I have already made some (many) mistakes, and trial and error method is not working. I am so pleased to have found this site. Hopefully you fine folks can help me get going in the right direction. I have been working with no directions, but learned alot just reading threads here, mostly what i have been doing wrong. I will apologise for too many questions, hope you can bear with me.
I bought a Chicago rotary tumbler with two 3# barrels. (mistake number one) The belts break every 3-6 days, and the rubber gasket on one of the barrels is already worn a hole in the center to trap the grit. I have ordered some Lortone belts understanding from feedback that these hold up well, and fit the Chicago. I am really now thinking I should just get a Lortone tumbler, and am looking at the one with 2, 6# barrels. In the meantime though I cannot seem to find replacement rubber gaskets for the Chicago. Does anyone know if the Lortone gaskets for the 3# barrels will fit?
Unfortunately, I did not know that one barrel should be saved for the polish stage. Mine have had all stages in both, and residual grit, even though I washed thoroughly (I thought) i am sure this is contributing to my inability to get a shine on anything. I cannot afford to get both a vibratory tumbler for polish phase and a new tumbler, so at this stage i plan on finishing polish in a rotary that the barrel is used for only polish. I welcome any and all suggestions for brands you like and why. Price is an obstacle for me.
Grit quantity and duration has been a guesswork so far, so recommendations for how long a grit will last, and how much should be used per pound, and /or a link to this info would help. I also need to know how you folks feel about adding ceramic or nylon pellets. Most of what i have been working with is of a similar size. I have been working agates, carnelian, rutilated quartz, jaspers, labradorite, and amazonite. The agates, quartz, and jaspers have been intermingled. The labradorite and amazonite I kept seperate as they are softer.
I have been a rock hound all my life so have no shortage of raw materials, and a fairly good amount of knowledge about the different stones and mineral. I am however struggling to get results with the tumbler i have and my lack of technique. i really appreciate any help or suggestions.....
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Post by catmandewe on Aug 25, 2013 12:38:54 GMT -5
I have interchanged the rubber gaskets on the harbour freight barrels and the lortone barrels. You can also get some shoe goo and put a little pile on the metal lid so it will fill the hole when you put the gasket back on. Most things can be fixed pretty easily. 1 tablespoon of rough grit per pound is about normal, it decreases as you get closer to the polish stage. The pre polish and polish is reusable, so save it in a container and reuse it Have fun with it...........Tony
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Post by Jugglerguy on Aug 25, 2013 17:14:54 GMT -5
How long are you keeping your rocks in 60/90? Many of my rocks stay there for months. I am for perfection, but even if you don't want perfection, you have to be careful that any holes in the rocks don't carry grit to later stages. If you are leaving some holes in your rocks, that's a more likely source of contamination than your barrels not being clean enough, since it sounds like you're being very careful to clean your barrels.
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rolanstones
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2013
Posts: 95
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Post by rolanstones on Aug 25, 2013 22:19:33 GMT -5
Some of the softer material like the Amazonite and the Labradorite were shaped as wanted after 8 days, with a bit more coarse grit added on day 5. The harder materials have been at least 7 days, but some have been added back to another batch of coarse, or recharged with new grit every 7 days for at least 2 weeks. I have gone to the medium grit when I was happy with the general shape for 7-10 days, followed by a prepolish for 7 days.
You may have a good point Jugglerguy, on some of these stones containing a bit of grit in holes. The stone's I have been trying to get a glossy shine on are Agate, Jasper, Rose Quartz, and petrified wood. The wood has some residual bark layer on one side of a few pieces which i wanted to keep as it adds interest. The grooves are not deep and are reasonably rounded. I took a toothbrush and soapy water to these the last time before going into a polish run, but it has been going for 11 days now, and when I checked today, they have a "satin" finish, but not gloss. I thought 7 days would have been long enough? I have read here, some people recommend a "burnishing" run for 24 hours between every progression? If I understood, this is using either Borax or shaved Ivory soap?
How long should a polish run take? Maybe I should discard all the polish sludge, re-run everything again in a pre-polish, and try again with well cleaned material and a fresh batch of polish?
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Post by Jugglerguy on Aug 25, 2013 22:34:37 GMT -5
I always finish my rocks in a vibe, so I can't help much with the rotary. However, in my vibe my rocks look pretty shiny after 500 grit. I do a stage of 1000 grit too and they really don't look much better after polish than they do after 1000. My point is that if your rocks didn't look pretty good going into the polish stage, you might need to back up more than that. There's a member here who does really nice rocks and recommends doing a double 45 minute wash between each stage. Look at Rollingstone's recipe on here: Recipe. I use Dreft laundry soap to wash my rocks. I thought that shaving Ivory was a pain and Dreft was recommended. I really think that just getting all the holes out of your rocks will fix your problem. When I do my weekly clean outs in the 60/90 stage, I usually only remove a few perfect rocks and then add a few more to fill it back up to about 3/4 full. When I have enough perfect rocks saved up for the next stage, I start the next stage. If I'm doing beach rounded rocks, that might be in three weeks, but if I'm doing broken agates it will be more like three months.
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slabcabber
has rocks in the head
Member since April 2010
Posts: 590
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Post by slabcabber on Aug 26, 2013 9:24:44 GMT -5
Hello Rolanstones, As for as the best rotary tumbler you can get is Homemade, in my opinion, You use good material to build it ,it will last a long time. I have one that is homemade that runs 2 10 lb barrels of one 35 lb barrel Planning on building another that will hold 2 35 lb barrels. So if you want a good tumbler that will last..... Build it , they are easy to build and not to costly either.
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,547
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Post by tkvancil on Aug 26, 2013 11:29:13 GMT -5
Welcome aboard Rolanstones ! I have lortone tumblers and have had no problems with them. Two 33b's and a QT66. Like 'em a lot. I did run a single barrel 3# Chicago electric for a while. The barrel basically wore too thin for me to be comfortable with and it began to make a loud buzzing noise after about a year. I stopped using it. The lortones are still quiet and the barrels are still in good shape after more than two years running 24/7/365. Here is my formula for 3# barrels...loaded to 2/3rds volume. -60/90, 4tbs. grit & 1/2 cup water. Clean out & add fresh water & grit every 7 days refilling to 2/3rds volume. -220, 4tbs. grit & 1/2 cup water. 25% of the volume (about1/2 cup) is cushioning with small ceramic media and/or plastic pellets. Run 10 days. -600, 6tbs. grit & 5/8 cup water. Add plastic pellets to 2/3rds. Run 10 days. -Wash...two steps. 4 hours with 1/4 tbs. Ivory soap shavings & 1 tbs. borax. Rinse well & 20 hours with 3 tbs. borax. Water just covering stones. -AO 1000 pre polish (optional), 6tbs. AO 1000 & 5/8 cup water. Run 7 days. Repeat wash cycle before polish ! -Polish, 6tbs. polish & 5/8 cup water. 25% to 30% of volume is plastic pellets. Run 14 days. I notice you said all your rocks are similar in size. Smaller rocks are needed in each cycle. If you have no smalls, ceramic media works well and can be used through all steps as long as they are rinsed/cleaned. Plastic pellets are good cushioning but can carry grit to the next stages even when washed. If using plastic keep them separated by grit size. Hope this is helpful.
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Post by pghram on Aug 26, 2013 13:33:49 GMT -5
Welcome. As to your question about reserving a barrel for polish only, I suppose it couldn’t hurt, but it’s not absolutely necessary. I run a QT66 for rough & a 33B for doing the other stages. If I don't have enought ready for 120/220 then I rough gring in all four barrels. I burnish w/ borax between each stage, wash everything scrupulously, and use the same barrels. One thing I do however is run long cycles to allow the grit to break down, usually 10 days. I also polish with Tin Oxide for 2 full weeks. It’s over-kill but it gets good results. The most important ingredient in the tumbling recipe is patience.
Rich
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rolanstones
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2013
Posts: 95
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Post by rolanstones on Aug 26, 2013 15:08:19 GMT -5
Excellent helpful information!!!!
I think from what all of you have been saying, that I have been rushing the process too quickly, and not getting good surface before going to the next step. I have not run a cleaning cycle, but will do so from now on. Is Borax a name brand of soap, or does it go by other product names? I see I will be needing more polishing grit, and some ceramic filler. The tumbler I have (the Chicago) is wearing out quickly, and at the rate I have needed replacement parts, I feel justified in replacing it with a better, more durable unit. I do not see me ever running very large quantities at once, so I think a 6# barrel size would meet my needs, and I am glad to hear the Lortone holds up well.
What would be the largest stone you you could reasonably expect to get a nice finish on with a mix of smaller stone? I have a larger piece of Amazonite about 2 1/2" X 1 1/2", and about 4 fifths of an inch thick. It would make a nice Palm stone and seems to have rough shaped nicely in the coarse 60/90 grind, but has not been taken to any further steps.
Most of what I am after, will fall in the 1" to 1 1/2", and up to 2" range. But if you all see better results with a mix of size pieces in a barrel load, I may have to sacrifice some of the material to make smaller rubble to mix in, or would adding the ceramic media be enough to get to all the surfaces?
I am really appreciating all the advice and help. Very glad I stumbled on this site.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Aug 26, 2013 16:41:55 GMT -5
Borax is found by the laundry soap. The only brand I know of is "20 Mule Team". You can tumble a big rock, but you'll need the rest to be small. Check out the palm sized rock in this post (scroll down a little): Big yellow rockThere was a more recent thread on the topic of large rocks but I don't have time to look for it right now.
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rolanstones
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2013
Posts: 95
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Post by rolanstones on Aug 27, 2013 15:19:40 GMT -5
I can't believe how much great information you have all provided in just a few days. I have also been drooling over the great pictures you have linked, or that I could back search from your own posts. Beautiful and inspiring.....
I have opened up what has been running in a polish, cleaned and closely examined, and re-evaluated all the first coarse run rocks I have going. After the advice on flaws and pits/ holes,and seeing what you have accomplished, I have decided I will never be happy with the final results so I have started over. Some of the Agates and Kambala Jasper was almost there, so they may not need much more in the 60/90 to get solid surface without pits or holes. The Rutilated Quartz, Amazonite, and Labradorite all need more shaping so I started those over in a coarse as well.
Now that I have some ratios of grit, stone, water, and air space to work with (Thank you all), I think I will get better results. I will be ordering more grits, ceramic, and a grinder today plus a few more odds and ends I am sure. I would like to post pictures as I go, but cannot seem to figure that out yet as copy/paste does not seem to work. I see this as something i will enjoy for a long time.....
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Post by Jugglerguy on Aug 27, 2013 15:23:05 GMT -5
Your best bet for posting pictures is a photo hosting site like flickr or photobucket. Flickr has almost unlimited storage for free (with ads), so that's the one I prefer. Find the share button under your pictures and copy the BBcode here. It's pretty easy, but ask questions if you can't figure it out.
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,547
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Post by tkvancil on Sept 9, 2013 11:54:48 GMT -5
Excellent helpful information!!!! I think from what all of you have been saying, that I have been rushing the process too quickly, and not getting good surface before going to the next step. I have not run a cleaning cycle, but will do so from now on. Is Borax a name brand of soap, or does it go by other product names? I see I will be needing more polishing grit, and some ceramic filler. The tumbler I have (the Chicago) is wearing out quickly, and at the rate I have needed replacement parts, I feel justified in replacing it with a better, more durable unit. I do not see me ever running very large quantities at once, so I think a 6# barrel size would meet my needs, and I am glad to hear the Lortone holds up well. What would be the largest stone you you could reasonably expect to get a nice finish on with a mix of smaller stone? I have a larger piece of Amazonite about 2 1/2" X 1 1/2", and about 4 fifths of an inch thick. It would make a nice Palm stone and seems to have rough shaped nicely in the coarse 60/90 grind, but has not been taken to any further steps. Most of what I am after, will fall in the 1" to 1 1/2", and up to 2" range. But if you all see better results with a mix of size pieces in a barrel load, I may have to sacrifice some of the material to make smaller rubble to mix in, or would adding the ceramic media be enough to get to all the surfaces? I am really appreciating all the advice and help. Very glad I stumbled on this site. You don't really have to sacrifice any of your larger rocks. The ceramics will work as smalls but will grind away pretty fast in the 60/90 course. There are other options....Some members use pea gravel,and I have heard of others using marbles. I haven't tried marbles as I have heard that they can cause gas problems. I use "junk quartz".... what I have been using lately is some poorly polished aquarium accents I found at Wal-Mart. Two dollars a bag, I crack em' with hammer and chisel and make smalls. I also use these small quart/agate pebbles. You can find these almost anywhere...river banks, beaches, landscape gravels, etc. Here's a pic. sometimes these turn out to be keeprs, sometimes they get recycled as fill
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rolanstones
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since August 2013
Posts: 95
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Post by rolanstones on Sept 9, 2013 21:09:21 GMT -5
So far, I have successfully resisted the urge to post a bunch of photos of sludge filled barrels, with hour long audio recordings of turning tumblers. I am coming very close to the next step progression's on everything I have been working on, and looking forward to a good look at the cleaned stones to evaluate which are ready to move on, and which need some more time.
The mix of ceramic, small junk pieces, and the remains of some rutilated quartz that basically seems to have disintegrated, has seemed to make a good difference in the rounding out process. I was even able to add some of the "pre-roughed" larger pieces into the 6# barrel as the rough wore down and reduced, making some room.
I have no shortage of rubble garbage rock around, and this has been working to my satisfaction. Now that the Chicago tumbler has a lortone belt and a lortone gasket replacement, it has been running without incident, so I may get some mileage out of it yet.
I hope to have some pictures soon.
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