grayfingers
Cave Dweller 
Member since November 2007
Posts: 4,575 
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Post by grayfingers on Apr 3, 2014 11:08:53 GMT -5
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bsky4463
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2013
Posts: 1,696
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Post by bsky4463 on Apr 3, 2014 11:43:08 GMT -5
hmmmmm, just hmmmm..... not sure what to think. 80 years collecting, 30 years for them to sort thru it all, definitely a curious scenario. thanks for the link.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,492
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Post by Sabre52 on Apr 3, 2014 11:43:54 GMT -5
Yeah, a friend of a friend was caught up in one of these type busts where he accidentally wandered onto unfenced federal lands while legally collecting, with permission, on adjacent private property. What the feds seem to do is assume, since you've collected once illegally, all your collection is suspect and subject to confiscation, which is what they did in this fellers case. I guess the onus then falls on the individual to prove legal provenance for all the materials, which of course if self collected, or even purchased, is almost impossible. Does anyone have readable receipts for stuff you bought 30 years ago I wonder? Basically, if you are caught redhanded collecting or buying illegally, you are pretty much screwed and guilty until proven innocent. Interesting, because here in Texas, artifact collecting, fee digging, and shows for sales are big business and 100% legal.....Mel
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Don
Cave Dweller
He wants you too, Malachi.
Member since December 2009
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Don on Apr 3, 2014 12:04:44 GMT -5
So, the feds have more or less robbed this 91yo man of his property because they cannot prove to themselves that the items were obtained legally. Guilty until proven guilty is the new normal.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,601
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Post by jamesp on Apr 3, 2014 13:14:37 GMT -5
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,718
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Post by Fossilman on Apr 3, 2014 14:04:02 GMT -5
Very touchy subject! Sounds like the old gentle,man was in his rights..(In my opinion)..
I do know a guy from back home in Montana,that stole artifacts from a cave in Wyoming,he got caught with the items and received 5 years in the State Wyoming prison....
I do my homework before my adventures in Montana and North Dakota.
It's a touch and go place here in Oregon,I probably will never hunt artifacts here,because of the state laws...
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panamark
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2012
Posts: 1,343
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Post by panamark on Apr 3, 2014 17:59:34 GMT -5
Yeah, a friend of a friend was caught up in one of these type busts where he accidentally wandered onto unfenced federal lands while legally collecting, with permission, on adjacent private property. What the feds seem to do is assume, since you've collected once illegally, all your collection is suspect and subject to confiscation, which is what they did in this fellers case. I guess the onus then falls on the individual to prove legal provenance for all the materials, which of course if self collected, or even purchased, is almost impossible. Does anyone have readable receipts for stuff you bought 30 years ago I wonder? Basically, if you are caught redhanded collecting or buying illegally, you are pretty much screwed and guilty until proven innocent. Interesting, because here in Texas, artifact collecting, fee digging, and shows for sales are big business and 100% legal.....Mel It sounds like maybe the artifacts from foreign countries is what moved the Feds. It can be very bad to have certain artifacts from certain countries. I was wondering Mel, if you have a single receipt from a pay to dig site, you then place the onus on the prosecutor to prove you didn't get them at that place and time. It is a very tough area to enforce. Too bad there is a small minority that disregard the law and ethics or some artifact collecting. |
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Mark K
Cave Dweller
Member since April 2012
Posts: 2,816
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Post by Mark K on Apr 3, 2014 20:56:59 GMT -5
Or someone with connections wanted the collection and he wouldn't sell.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,492
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Post by Sabre52 on Apr 3, 2014 22:01:40 GMT -5
You know, museums are usually full of cultural materials stolen from other countries in years past, especially during the periods of European exploration of Africa, the middle east etc. Yet, museums always try to claim the high ground in these issues and often help the prosecution of private collectors. And again, the private collector is always put in the guilty till proven innocent category.
Mark, Whenever these cases seemed to be prosecuted back in California, there did seem to be a lot of law breaking involved but there was a lot of dispute as to whether or not surface collecting of incidental arrowheads etc was legal or not. Seemed to vary depending on who you talked to back 30 or 40 years ago. Much stricter in recent years.
In Texas, since most all land is privately held, it's easy to find fee digs etc but I don't know if they even give receipts. I think probably not. Trespass is taken very seriously and collecting on government land is illegal but I doubt anyone is going to hassle the collector who just hunts private land with permission or pays to fee dig. The fee digs sure ain't cheap though.....Mel
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Mark K
Cave Dweller
Member since April 2012
Posts: 2,816
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Post by Mark K on Apr 4, 2014 20:00:22 GMT -5
Also, museums do not want pieces they do not have detailed info on unless it is an extraordinary piece.
They will smash them and toss them in the trash.
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Post by radio on Apr 4, 2014 20:55:59 GMT -5
Yeah, a friend of a friend was caught up in one of these type busts where he accidentally wandered onto unfenced federal lands while legally collecting, with permission, on adjacent private property. Very similar thing happened to me in California some years ago. I was metal detecting with permission on private property and inadvertently crossed the unmarked boundery a few feet into BLM land. A Park ranger showed up and read me the riot act, but fortunately I had found nothing, so no citation was issued. They sure aren't friendly or understanding! |
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agatemaggot
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2006
Posts: 2,195
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Post by agatemaggot on Apr 5, 2014 8:07:47 GMT -5
I read this individual had a human skeleton in his collection, not siding with the Feds but he didn't show much common sense on that one.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 20:54:28 GMT -5
No law against owning human skeletons. None. Buy them on ebay.com In the animal biz if the feds suspect you of smuggling a boa constrictor, they will (a) take ALL of your boa constrictors and put you in jail, bring federal charges and bankrupt you. [ Link] and (B) they go to all your boa constrictor clients and confiscate all of their boa constrictors too. [JB; pers. comm 2014] |
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bentiron
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since September 2011
Posts: 85
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Post by bentiron on Apr 29, 2014 15:19:12 GMT -5
this is a touchy subject, especially with Native Americans, and more so since the Native Americans got laws passed regarding graves and artifacts passed a few years ago. These laws make it real difficult on researchers and museums to do their thing with artifacts. One of my late uncles farmed in Indiana and was always plowing up some sort of artifacts or human remain and just left it where it was because he didn't want any "government" interference with his land by them digging around for more of those items. Some of his neighbors sure had some large collections of lithic artifacts from generations of plowing. One old gentleman had dozens of those display cases of lithic finds in his parlor from his great grandfather's day on down to his time of picking them up off of their acreage while plowing. I suppose the Feds in their zeal to keep us all safe could possibly descend on this family and take their collection too since they have nothing but family history to document their finds. Sometimes I think there is a huge disconnect between the Founding Fathers concept of what was wanted and what actually came about as far as freedom from tyranny. The photos of that swarm of tents and vehicles looks far more intimidating than that old man does.
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