jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 28, 2014 9:29:31 GMT -5
I tumble with a vib 99% of the time and have had problems with the cushion effect in the final polishing stage. That was the problem till I picked up James was using sugar. I tried it, too much first time, I got it right the second time using tin oxide. The vib must be completely full when using sugar. My polish time was reduced significantly plus having as good a polish as I ever had on Agate's and Jasper's. Thanks James 39don Not sure if sugar is the best cushion/lub. Would think that lubricating effects of a good additive may quicken things. Industry sure uses lubricating additives in their abrasive operations. why not in tumbling. They have a problem with pollution, getting rid of the used lub. And open grinding operations causing air quality issues. Sugar not good for hotter process they are often involved in, fine for tumbling. I do not think foam has ever been created in a sugar slurry. Biodegradable sugar OK, and the ants are fat around here. Glad it worked for you Don.
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Post by captbob on Sept 28, 2014 9:48:39 GMT -5
Biodegradable sugar OK, and the ants are fat around here. While reading this last night, I was thinking about where you were dumping your slurry each batch and the ants that would attract doing that around here. 'nuther question ifin ya don't mind... Why the sugar in the first place? I've heard/read of it, but never used it in any my tumbling. Maybe I'll try it someday, but I dunno... I'm thinkin' that was more problem than solution. If there is a thread or two on the "why", I'd like to read them and save you the typing. I'll search for that information later, I've got too much to do this morning to settle in here already. Again, I loved the thread and your processes, but I'm still shaking my head at the visual results.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 28, 2014 10:09:13 GMT -5
Biodegradable sugar OK, and the ants are fat around here. While reading this last night, I was thinking about where you were dumping your slurry each batch and the ants that would attract doing that around here. 'nuther question ifin ya don't mind... Why the sugar in the first place? I've heard/read of it, but never used it in any my tumbling. Maybe I'll try it someday, but I dunno... I'm thinkin' that was more problem than solution. If there is a thread or two on the "why", I'd like to read them and save you the typing. I'll search for that information later, I've got too much to do this morning to settle in here already. Again, I loved the thread and your processes, but I'm still shaking my head at the visual results. Sugar makes a thick slick slurry instantly. Lubrication helps the abrasive cut. It thickens the slurry for padding. With obsidian, waiting for a thick slurry can bruise it. Or like you said, plastic pellets give instant protection. Bruising/impact damage is big problem w/tumbling obsidian. I was trying to avoid the plastic till I had to. Just lazy. Yes, I am shaking my head too. But still swinging the bat. Not concerned about the failure. But why it failed to polish. i could dump the slurry in the creek. I guess it would not be a pollutant. It did not attract that many ants which surprised me. The thick sugar slurry kinda keeps the rocks glued together, reducing bounce and creating rubbing. Rubbing effective for abrading. Bouncing not so good.
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tkvancil
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Post by tkvancil on Sept 28, 2014 10:10:09 GMT -5
Borax has always thickened any slurry I've ever added it to, rotary or vibe. It also leaves an oily looking and feeling film that makes me believe it is also a lube. I know a lot of folks don't like to use it because of the disposal problem.
I dumped several buckets of water that had borax residue and a little tumbling mud on my gravel around the garage. Had some weeds growing in the limestone and wanted the borax to kill 'em off. Well the weeds got real healthy and big. Guess the minerals in the mud out did the borax. Round-up was the answer of course ....
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 28, 2014 10:23:07 GMT -5
Borax has always thickened any slurry I've ever added it to, rotary or vibe. It also leaves an oily looking and feeling film that makes me believe it is also a lube. I know a lot of folks don't like to use it because of the disposal problem. I dumped several buckets of water that had borax residue and a little tumbling mud on my gravel around the garage. Had some weeds growing in the limestone and wanted the borax to kill 'em off. Well the weeds got real healthy and big. Guess the minerals in the mud out did the borax. Round-up was the answer of course .... From E-How To tk: "Why Dish Soap Liquid dish soap helps other materials adhere. The soap bubbles are comprised of tightly packed molecules that grab. Soap is slightly sticky which enhances the attractive property. Your fertilizer will stay on the plants long enough for the blades to absorb the nutrients. Recipe Most homemade fertilizers contain beer, ammonia, liquid dish soap, and molasses. The mixture is sprayed on the lawn to help it green up and add nutrients to the soil. Just like any fertilizer, the mixture should be well watered in to prevent burning."
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Post by captbob on Sept 28, 2014 10:29:34 GMT -5
Stopping in between chores-
MY thinking is the sugar coats (encapsulates?) everything. Maybe not enough to totally negate the grit, but maybe enough to shroud something as fine as the polish?
I'll mull that over during my next chores... probably take someone way above my pay grade to prove or disprove that.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 28, 2014 12:20:14 GMT -5
Have been polishing agate with sugar for years. Does great on them. but they are no brainers. Obsidian tricky.
Got a question, will 220 remove frost bruises from obsidian fairly easy ?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 28, 2014 15:55:33 GMT -5
These are running in 30/60 coarse grind. Obviously bruised. Ready for a fresh batch of another coarse grit. Was intentional, knowing they were going thru coarse again. Causes 1) Barrel only 2/3 full 2) Large obsidians averaging 3-4 ounces hit each other hard 3) Fast 60 RPM 4) Thin watery slurry Solution-fill barrel to 7/8 with 1/2" glass. But to avoid concretion sugar added to keep dead spots from(concretions) forming. 7/8 full barrel really needed w/larger obsidians at such fast rolling speed to avoid bruises. All it takes is a half a day(or any amount of time) w/low barrel fill any where along the tumble and obsidian will get these bruises. Obsidian still grinds fast w/constipated barrel.
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Post by tntmom on Sept 29, 2014 2:47:28 GMT -5
I am posting to follow this thread, don't want to miss anything else!!! I am completely interested in your recipe in a rotary! I tumble obsidian all the time but have always used a vibe after the graded 80 grit stage. It's almost 1 am and I need to go to sleep so please excuse me if this question has already been answered but... you are only using graded grits right? I've noticed that even in the rough grind, cheaper mixed grits like 60/90 mess up the finish versus a graded 80. Results seem to be twice as fast and uniform using graded grits especially on materials like ob.
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Post by tntmom on Sept 29, 2014 3:19:34 GMT -5
One more thing.... I think I read that you are roughing with 30/70? That is way to coarse for soft ob. I am thinking that would cause more pits and surface imperfections than if you started with a finer grit. Ob is so soft that it doesn't need the super coarse grit.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 29, 2014 6:59:23 GMT -5
One more thing.... I think I read that you are roughing with 30/70? That is way to coarse for soft ob. I am thinking that would cause more pits and surface imperfections than if you started with a finer grit. Ob is so soft that it doesn't need the super coarse grit. I hear you Krystee. The 30/70 grit is super aggressive. The obsidian shrunk a lot, like a whole bunch due to that grit. I was worried about that too. So I checked the progress of the 220 and was stunned at the smooth satin surface. The scratches from the 30/70 sure looked completely gone. And a very smooth 220 satin finish was produced. Could be mistaken, but I could not see a single scratch. After 5 days of rolling the 30 grit at a fast 60 RPM with out sugar the 30 grit seemed to have completely broken down. So i figured the grit had reduced a lot. There were no large 30 grit particles left. I rough grind all materials in 30/60 at that fast 60 RPM. The 30 grit is always destroyed in 3 days. And is changed at 5 days. I have sifted the whole load thru a pillow case looking for those table salt sized 30 grit particles after 5 days. They are always crushed and gone. i did math on it. The 30 grit is 450 microns. The 220 is 90 microns. So their size ratio is 450 divided by 90 = 5 to 1. And that is assuming the 30 grit did not break down. but it sure seemed to. I pulled samples at 2 days in the 30 grit and they were very scratched. Pulled at 5 days and they were much smoother. That made the 220 seem doable. Even after 24 hours the 220 looked like satin with no visible scratches. I was surprised. So that was the 'logic'. The grit jump that concerns me the most is the jump from 1000 to 14,000. That is 18 microns to 1 micron. Size ratio 18 to 1. The stones look like the have a substandard 1000 grit polish. Of course, that is just an opinion. Will rerun them in 5000 and then the final 14,000 before making conclusions. If the 5000 and then the 14,000 does a nice polish then the 18 to 1 jump should be the problem. If not, then looking back at prior grits is going to be necessary. or the filler. I know Toad had mentioned this 30 to 220 jump early in the other OB thread. He had me sweating this issue too. I was paying attention. His concern made me look up the physical size of the grits. I asked Chuck about it and he sent me a 'grit size in microns chart'. Then I researched grit size ratio. And found out why they recommend 220,500,1000 steps. It is the grit size ratio. Rotary tumblers are not always good for breaking down grit, so more grit steps required than a vib. May not get it right Krystee. Obsidian not friendly
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Post by captbob on Sept 29, 2014 8:34:04 GMT -5
Hey James, you found 5000 grit? If you posted where I missed it, so may I ask where to save me the search? Thanks!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 29, 2014 9:23:10 GMT -5
Hey James, you found 5000 grit? If you posted where I missed it, so may I ask where to save me the search? Thanks! I will call Lortone when they open captbob. Apparently they have it. Thank you ASI Industries. I found some on Ebay but it ships out of Russia . Lortone's phone number (425)493 1600. It's an interesting point this 5000. Many here use Rock Shed polish and it is 14,000. So many go from 500 or 1000 to 14,000. I have always gone from 500 to Rock Shed's 14,000. But run the 500 hard and feel it has reduced quite a bit. And always been suspicious of a 500 satin glaze under the 14,000 when viewed in a reflection. Note that ASI refers to Lortone's 5000 as pre-polish. And I approached the Rock Shed about their polish. He said he was actively pursuing some 8 micron aluminum oxide. So there may be a gap issue. The math says yes. Greetings [jamesp] Lortone Pre-polish is 5 microns (equivalent to 5000 grit). Please check out my Sticky's below. -- Please click images to open larger images in a new Tab, same with everything that is Underlined! I currently have a 3lb Beach (UK), Lortone QT 12/66 (USA) rotaries & 2x Viking Vibrasonic (Diamond Pacific) (USA) virbrating tumblers, with Silicon Carbide grit F80, F220, F600, F1200, with Tin Oxide (1.0 micron) & Aluminum Oxide (1.0 micron & 0.3 micron) polishes. I hail from (The Barony of Seabegs) Bonnybridge, Stirlingshire, U.K, where aliens (15mb) sometimes come for a visit & about 4 miles west from that monstrosity & 7 miles west of this new monstrosity! Sticky's: their contents are resource information 1#: Vendors worldwide (2mb), 2#: How to use the forum, 3#: How to identify rocks & minerals, 4#: Save money on expensive grits & polishes, 5#: Aussie Lapidary Forum: Rock Tumbling Guide!
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Post by captbob on Sept 29, 2014 16:24:29 GMT -5
Well you got me going James. I dug out a Priority Mail box full of mahogany obsidian chunks that I knew was somewhere in the garage and started two 15lb tumblers of that today. Only 10+ pounds in each, but they're big pieces. Should be able to take it down to just one barrel pretty soon. Just hope my tumbler belts hold out until my Rock Shed order gets here with replacements.
Figured I needed something to do until the Dallasite from bcrockhound gets here.
No hurry, but please post if you find the 5000
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 30, 2014 3:41:14 GMT -5
Well you got me going James. I dug out a Priority Mail box full of mahogany obsidian chunks that I knew was somewhere in the garage and started two 15lb tumblers of that today. Only 10+ pounds in each, but they're big pieces. Should be able to take it down to just one barrel pretty soon. Just hope my tumbler belts hold out until my Rock Shed order gets here with replacements. Figured I needed something to do until the Dallasite from bcrockhound gets here. No hurry, but please post if you find the 5000 yep, you should be able to grind those two in coarse to fit in one tumbler. Ordered five 14 ounce bottles. It was cheaper than the 5 pound package because they fit in a MFRB. The individual bottles handy to reduce chance of contamination(you saw my shop). www.lortone.com/abrasives_polish.htmlAluminum Oxide Pre-Polish A great pre-polish. #591-021 14 oz. $5.75 #591-022 5 lb. $24.40 Note: Definition of pre-polish used loosely. 500,600,1000 and now 5000 all seem to be called pre-polish. For agate in a rotary and obsidian and agate in a vib 500 and 600 qualifies, but not with obsidian in a rotary. If 500 breaks down in a rotary to any polish on the obsidian you are probably bruising your obsidian. If the barrel is not kept full as it wears in the rotary you are probably bruising the obsidian, so keep plenty of filler close by to add for full barrel.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 6, 2014 6:24:10 GMT -5
Still pondering the polish in the rotary. Barrel coming available soon. Have settled on a plan. 1) Going to dissolve as much sugar as possible for thickest slurry. About as thick as honey 2) Put nothing but the obsidian and plastic pellets to make up the 7/8 full barrel as suggested, thanx captbob and conrock. 3) No tumbled broken glass filler, no ceramic filler, nothing but the obsidian and plastic.
So barrel 1/2 full of obsidian, 3/8 full of plastic. Run at slow 12 RPM in 6 inch barrel. Super thick slurry. However, if there was enough obsidian to fill a barrel 7/8 full, I would try just the obsidian and the super thick sugar slurry alone.
Karo syrup is an alternative. It works great but is costly. So the white sugar. Karo syrup @ $20/gallon Sugar @ $22/50 pound bag
Oh yea, will rerun 1000 then 5000 then 14,000. 2 to 3 days each. if all works well, will do 50,000 too. Will attempt surface photos of each step
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Post by connrock on Oct 6, 2014 7:55:23 GMT -5
Good on ya James! I hope the plastic pellets do the trick for you and when you get brave enough you can try eliminating the sugar and just use the pelletsconnrock
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 6, 2014 8:34:19 GMT -5
Good on ya James! I hope the plastic pellets do the trick for you and when you get brave enough you can try eliminating the sugar and just use the pelletsconnrock When you mentioned different glass and obsidian not polishing equally I decided not to use the glass filler during polish. I liked the way the glass filler did for 30/60,220,500, no problems. Maybe the 1000 too. When the hard glass filler had a wet shine and the obsidian did not in polish mode, I was concerned. As far as sugar, I am hooked on it. Especially w/a 7/8 full barrel turning slow. For lubrication and to prevent settling/concreting. If the barrel is set down for 3 minutes a concretion forms when the slurry is dirty. It wastes no time. The heavy sugar water keeps the particles afloat.
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Post by captbob on Oct 6, 2014 8:53:23 GMT -5
I too would lose the sugar, but experimentation in and of itself is worth the time. Grit or polish will stick to the pellets to do what you are after. I still think sugar hinders more than helps, but that's just me. Looking forward to results and photos.
You found 5000?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 6, 2014 10:50:51 GMT -5
I too would lose the sugar, but experimentation in and of itself is worth the time. Grit or polish will stick to the pellets to do what you are after. I still think sugar hinders more than helps, but that's just me. Looking forward to results and photos. You found 5000? Yes, 5000 found, 4 posts up captbob. Never polished w/out it. Would be lost. Am all about the lubricating value. Will go w/out sugar in a heartbeat when the failures continue.
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