kimjesamax
off to a rocking start
Member since September 2014
Posts: 12
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Post by kimjesamax on Oct 7, 2014 17:10:48 GMT -5
I've seen a couple threads on here regarding the bushings grinding against the barrel but never really saw a solution. Thought I'd ask:
My barrel slides all the way to one side (the non-motor side) and grinds against the bushing/roller. It still rotates at 20 RPMs but I am worried about durability and the motor working to hard.
Is this common? I slid a piece of cardboard under the side to try to offset it but it still does it.. And I also have some paint powder on the rollers. Is that also common?
Thanks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 17:43:45 GMT -5
Greetings [kimjesamax] firstly may i welcome you to RTH Forums, yes all rotary tumblers do it and is it more noticable especially with a rubber barrel, I modified my 3lb Beach with a bolt about six nuts and a Lortone C-Series barrel guide (basically a plastic wheel with a hole through the centre). My YouTube videosPlease check out my Sticky's below. -- Please click images to open larger images in a new Tab, same with everything that is Underlined! I currently have a 3lb Beach (UK), Lortone QT 12/66 (USA) rotaries & 2x Viking Vibrasonic (Diamond Pacific) (USA) virbrating tumblers, with Silicon Carbide grit F80, F220, F600, F1200, with Tin Oxide (1.0 micron) & Aluminum Oxide (1.0 micron & 0.3 micron) polishes. I hail from (The Barony of Seabegs) Bonnybridge, Stirlingshire, U.K, where aliens (15mb) sometimes come for a visit & about 4 miles west from that monstrosity & 7 miles west of this new monstrosity! Sticky's: their contents are resource information 1#: Vendors worldwide (2mb), 2#: How to use the forum, 3#: How to identify rocks & minerals, 4#: Save money on expensive grits & polishes, 5#: Aussie Lapidary Forum: Rock Tumbling Guide!
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Post by nowyo on Oct 7, 2014 22:15:29 GMT -5
Mine wanted to go the other direction, table wasn't quite level. Leveled the table. Before I put the barrel on the rollers I slide the idler shaft to the left (motor side) all the way. Seems to track fine after that. Had some paint powder on the rollers too, until the paint wore off. It's only been running since December so I can't really give a long term report.
Russ
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Post by connrock on Oct 8, 2014 7:25:42 GMT -5
I don't like the barrel guides on any of the major brand tumblers and have modified all of mine through the years. My 2 Model-B tumblers "ride" to one side or the other at times.I correct this by p[lacing thin cardboard on the opposite side that the barrel is riding to. I start with 1 piece of cardboard and add more if needed until the barrel runs without hitting either side and runs true to the center of the frame. Sometimes doing this in only 1 corner of the frame does the trick but other times both corners need a little "shim" to correct the problem.
I think what is happening here is that the 2 rollers are not perfectly parallel to each other or the outer portion of the barrels are off so the barrels go toward the side of the unit where the rollers are "narrower?. Have to ask one of the engineers here if it's toward the wider or narrower side of the rollers! connrock
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 8, 2014 8:46:38 GMT -5
I don't like the barrel guides on any of the major brand tumblers and have modified all of mine through the years. My 2 Model-B tumblers "ride" to one side or the other at times.I correct this by p[lacing thin cardboard on the opposite side that the barrel is riding to. I start with 1 piece of cardboard and add more if needed until the barrel runs without hitting either side and runs true to the center of the frame. Sometimes doing this in only 1 corner of the frame does the trick but other times both corners need a little "shim" to correct the problem. I think what is happening here is that the 2 rollers are not perfectly parallel to each other or the outer portion of the barrels are off so the barrels go toward the side of the unit where the rollers are "narrower?. Have to ask one of the engineers here if it's toward the wider or narrower side of the rollers! connrock AMEN BROTHER CONROCK. Shame on tumbler manufacturing companies. It is a classic case of making money off of their cheap crap expensive replacement parts. They are laughing all the way to the bank. I have seen a barrage of tumbler breakdowns lately. SOS. Replacement parts keeps some of these companies in business. Many of these designs are unchanged over 30+ years. No improvements. HELLO, writing is on the wall, send me money and I will send you replacement parts. example- If they used a cheap automotive A-size V-belt available at any auto parts store belt life would be 20+ years But noooo, they want you to buy the cheap, hard to find, under designed vacuum cleaner type belts that they buy cheap in mass. Belt purchases can be made at local Advance Auto Parts and they would loose the sale. I have barrels that walk up the shaft. i will measure them to see if they go to the narrow side or the wide side. I just raise one end of the tumbler so they go back down hill.(end roller only on one side) They are walking toward the narrow side Tom. will loosen the pillar blocks and realign. thanx, better to have level barrels. I really like the Lortone 12 pound rubber barrels. Perfect up to 40 RPM. But when filled with bigger rocks and run fast at 60 RPM for coarse grind they start leaking from the impact within. Even those fine barrels reap havoc at faster speeds.
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Post by connrock on Oct 9, 2014 7:09:04 GMT -5
I used to "re-design" almost everything mechanical that I thought could be made better. One of my pet peeves was the black gunk that formed on all of the tumblers that have plastic bearings for the rollers.I was running 8 or 9 rotary tumblers at the time and cleaning up that black crap was a pain in the butt and took time to do.The black gunk was not only very messy it's a great place for dirt and grit to collect which wears out the roller shafts and the plastic bearings as well. I finally got fed up with this and for almost a year tried all sorts of different oil and grease to see if I could eliminate the problem,,,I even tried using a little Slick-50! LOL I even went so far as to make new bearings out of Teflon! I found that no matter what type of lube I used,or what material I made bearings out of, it always came back to the same thing,,,,the lube on a steel shaft gave off a black gunk and that's that! Not to be beaten I made new roller shafts for one of my Model B's as an experiment! I turned down the ends of the roller shafts to accommodate high pressure plastic tubing that fit tightly over the ends of the shafts and had an OD that fit into the plastic bearings nicely. I took a Q-Tip and applied a very small amount of straight #30 motor oil to each shaft and plastic bearing and started tumbling. Due to the very small amount of oil I used,I kept a VERY close watch on this daily.I ran the tumbler 24/7 for almost 3 months before I had to apply a little more oil to the shafts and bearings and there was NO black crap at all!
I took photos of the shafts,made detailed drawings,gave distributor info for the high pressure plastic tubing,a fully detailed description of what I had done and sent it all to the company that manufactures Thumler's Tumblers.I told them that I wanted absolutely NOTHING for my idea,hoped it would help others with the black residue problem and maybe even be a selling feature for their tumblers!
That was about 12-15 years ago and if they sent a reply,,,,,, the Pony Express rider must have stopped off in a saloon for a drink and got drunk cuz I still haven't heard a single word from the company.
I guess the added expense of turning down the roller shafts and buying the high pressure plastic tubing was too much for the company to absorb! LOL
I can't remember the name of the company that advertized on TV but they said something like this,,,,,,We don't make Surf Boards,etc,etc,,,we make them better!I would LOVE to have worked for this company who improved on products!
A little off subject but,,,,one of the reasons I bought Lot-O-Tumblers is because they have a lifetime guarantee on their frames.Ya just can't beat "Lifetime"! connrock
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 9, 2014 8:02:19 GMT -5
Life time guarantee. Put your money where your design is. That says it all. Thumbs up to Lot-O. I doubt those companies wanted your fixes. They would prefer to sell replacement parts Tom. They are lucrative. I think sealed roller/ball bearings w/grease fittings are a minimum for a full time machine that has abrasives around them. If the bearing goes bad it does not normally ruin the shaft too. Plastic bushings can sure scar the shaft, so often you must replace both. Must be all about the profit. Looks like Lot-O's motto is taking lots of sales- go Lot-O
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Post by nowyo on Oct 9, 2014 23:37:45 GMT -5
Gentlemen, your assessments and comments are right on. I have two Lortones and the Thumler B. While they all have their good points they also all have their weaknesses, the biggest of which is, in my opinion, the plastic bushings. I'm going to need to put new ones on the QT6 pretty soon. The "black gunk" Connrock speaks of is a pain-barrel guides are another.
I also have a homebuilt I threw together with real bearings, real pulleys, real belt. Works fine, still playing around with it before I scale it up. Swapped a couple of different motors onto it, switched pulleys to play with different rpms, changed guide wheel configuration a couple of times. Honestly convinced that a person can build a better unit cheaper than buying the hobby type stamped steel frame things out there.
Haven't played with vibes at all, but good on the Lot-O people for a Lifetime guarantee.
Russ
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,179
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Post by jamesp on Oct 10, 2014 5:48:18 GMT -5
Gentlemen, your assessments and comments are right on. I have two Lortones and the Thumler B. While they all have their good points they also all have their weaknesses, the biggest of which is, in my opinion, the plastic bushings. I'm going to need to put new ones on the QT6 pretty soon. The "black gunk" Connrock speaks of is a pain-barrel guides are another. I also have a homebuilt I threw together with real bearings, real pulleys, real belt. Works fine, still playing around with it before I scale it up. Swapped a couple of different motors onto it, switched pulleys to play with different rpms, changed guide wheel configuration a couple of times. Honestly convinced that a person can build a better unit cheaper than buying the hobby type stamped steel frame things out there. Haven't played with vibes at all, but good on the Lot-O people for a Lifetime guarantee. Russ Please post photos of it Russ. Would love to see your tumbler.
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Post by connrock on Oct 10, 2014 8:22:34 GMT -5
Replacement parts,,,, When I built heavy machinery for the rubber and plastic industry we built some pretty big machines that had literally thousands of "fasteners" on each of them.One of the biggest mixers we built was an F-620 Banbury Mixer that had bolts as big as 3-1/2" "Super Bolts" and as small as 10-24 socket head bolts. When a customer ordered replacement bolts that were Grade 5, 1/4-20 x 2" lg,,they paid us $3.25 each for those bolts. I'm going back about 15 years and using this particular bolt for an example but it always amazed me that our customers paid this ridiculous price for common bolts,etc when they could buy them elsewhere for MUCH less. Tumbler manufacturers are no different and like James said,,,they make a killing on building inferior tumblers just so they can make another killing on replacement parts. connrock
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Oct 10, 2014 8:34:33 GMT -5
Because adding the parts up makes the tumbler cost $600 instead of $150. Ingenious. Set the lounge chair back and take parts orders. No marketing, no manufacturing, no store. Just order the stock or manufacture them and resell at inflated prices. They get most of those parts from other companies anyway. Off they go in the corporate jet.......looking down on us w/a grin. I am jelly ish. It is a justified rant Mr. Tom. Give ya $500 for that 10 year old used Lot-O w/a life time warranty
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Post by nowyo on Oct 11, 2014 23:29:41 GMT -5
Gentlemen, your assessments and comments are right on. I have two Lortones and the Thumler B. While they all have their good points they also all have their weaknesses, the biggest of which is, in my opinion, the plastic bushings. I'm going to need to put new ones on the QT6 pretty soon. The "black gunk" Connrock speaks of is a pain-barrel guides are another. I also have a homebuilt I threw together with real bearings, real pulleys, real belt. Works fine, still playing around with it before I scale it up. Swapped a couple of different motors onto it, switched pulleys to play with different rpms, changed guide wheel configuration a couple of times. Honestly convinced that a person can build a better unit cheaper than buying the hobby type stamped steel frame things out there. Haven't played with vibes at all, but good on the Lot-O people for a Lifetime guarantee. Russ Please post photos of it Russ. Would love to see your tumbler. Posted a pic of it last winter, I'll get a new one tomorrow and post it. Not a lot of change, but I've learned a few things in the process. Russ
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Post by nowyo on Oct 14, 2014 22:18:02 GMT -5
Gentlemen, your assessments and comments are right on. I have two Lortones and the Thumler B. While they all have their good points they also all have their weaknesses, the biggest of which is, in my opinion, the plastic bushings. I'm going to need to put new ones on the QT6 pretty soon. The "black gunk" Connrock speaks of is a pain-barrel guides are another. I also have a homebuilt I threw together with real bearings, real pulleys, real belt. Works fine, still playing around with it before I scale it up. Swapped a couple of different motors onto it, switched pulleys to play with different rpms, changed guide wheel configuration a couple of times. Honestly convinced that a person can build a better unit cheaper than buying the hobby type stamped steel frame things out there. Haven't played with vibes at all, but good on the Lot-O people for a Lifetime guarantee. Russ Please post photos of it Russ. Would love to see your tumbler. Here it is. In the pic it needs to be burped. Notice the guide wheel clamped in place-been playing with different setups. It's dirty because a couple days before the picture was taken I was late with burping and it blew the rubber cap off. Made a nice mess. It is running at 42 rpms in it's current setup, I'll run it like that for a couple more loads to get a better feel for it but it seems to be working faster than it did at 30 rpms. Russ
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 15, 2014 5:39:23 GMT -5
ah, the propane tank. I remember now. It is a great idea and will tumble a lot of rock. Steel lasts a long time as it is slow to wear from tumbling. A tank that size from the factory or made of PVC would cost a bunch. I am thinking that is the most inexpensive large tumbler that could be built. And easy to access rubber Fernco caps that show gas build up. That roller set up is sweet. I found 5-6 rollers like that and just replace them when they go bad. I see your guide roller has 2 bolts holding it for fast replacement. both shafts driven is a must. Like the heavy shafts allowing bigger bearings. 30 and 40 RPM is stroking for that size tank. My 6 inch PVC is fast at 60 RPM. They are actually 7.5 inches outside diameter. Surface speed of that bigger tank probably a good bit faster at 40 RPM. questions Do the rubber hoses on the shafts have a gap in the center to keep the tank's center weld off the shaft ? Is that a 1/3 HP motor. Get hot ? Did you weld a steel 4 inch pipe to the top of the tank for the rubber cap ? 60-70-80 pound capacity ? do you run 3/4 full ? i had a strange thing happen to my bearings after 2 years. They are also self centering pillar blocks like yours, but imports. I ran for about 3 months w/a slightly leaking barrel and slurry collected on 2 bearings on one side. The bearing never seemed to go bad but the bearing started spinning at the outer race and the self centering socket. You could jam a screw driver at the joint and the bearing would spin fine. It finally wore the self centering socket to over a 1/4 inch of play. it ran fine and had little friction until it started squeaking. changed the 2 bearings , no problem. Had I used Sealmasters that may not have happened. But it had a thick coating of dried slurry caked on the bearing. what bearing would take that ha. the cool thing about that design is it can be built on a wood frame and no metal skills required. Dang nice machine. PS- Russ, please burp that barrel before calamity occurs.
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Post by captbob on Oct 15, 2014 8:08:13 GMT -5
I have a silly question. Why not poke a pin hole or two in the cap? Something small enough that liquid can't escape, but a built up gas could use to vent out?
Might have to experiment with hole sizes, but start small and work your way up. No matter how hard we may try to make it so, this ain't rocket surgery.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 15, 2014 8:16:09 GMT -5
I have a silly question. Why not poke a pin hole or two in the cap? Something small enough that liquid can't escape, but a built up gas could use to vent out? Might have to experiment with hole sizes, but start small and work your way up. No matter how hard we may try to make it so, this ain't rocket surgery. It will sure make a mess captbob. It seems that the tiniest breech spits out a lot of slurry. Not sure why, but it does. And then small hole will get plugged up from particles giving false sense of security.
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Post by nowyo on Oct 15, 2014 8:47:39 GMT -5
ah, the propane tank. I remember now. It is a great idea and will tumble a lot of rock. Steel lasts a long time as it is slow to wear from tumbling. A tank that size from the factory or made of PVC would cost a bunch. I am thinking that is the most inexpensive large tumbler that could be built. And easy to access rubber Fernco caps that show gas build up. That roller set up is sweet. I found 5-6 rollers like that and just replace them when they go bad. I see your guide roller has 2 bolts holding it for fast replacement. both shafts driven is a must. Like the heavy shafts allowing bigger bearings. 30 and 40 RPM is stroking for that size tank. My 6 inch PVC is fast at 60 RPM. They are actually 7.5 inches outside diameter. Surface speed of that bigger tank probably a good bit faster at 40 RPM. questions Do the rubber hoses on the shafts have a gap in the center to keep the tank's center weld off the shaft ? Is that a 1/3 HP motor. Get hot ? Did you weld a steel 4 inch pipe to the top of the tank for the rubber cap ? 60-70-80 pound capacity ? do you run 3/4 full ? i had a strange thing happen to my bearings after 2 years. They are also self centering pillar blocks like yours, but imports. I ran for about 3 months w/a slightly leaking barrel and slurry collected on 2 bearings on one side. The bearing never seemed to go bad but the bearing started spinning at the outer race and the self centering socket. You could jam a screw driver at the joint and the bearing would spin fine. It finally wore the self centering socket to over a 1/4 inch of play. it ran fine and had little friction until it started squeaking. changed the 2 bearings , no problem. Had I used Sealmasters that may not have happened. But it had a thick coating of dried slurry caked on the bearing. what bearing would take that ha. the cool thing about that design is it can be built on a wood frame and no metal skills required. Dang nice machine. PS- Russ, please burp that barrel before calamity occurs. Thanks. Yeah, couldn't come up with a cheaper way to build a big tumbler. Now, to answer your questions. Gaps in the hoses on the shafts-Left the gap due to the center seam on the tank. If you look at the picture, though, you can see that the center of the tank has "sucked in". Kind of weird. 1/3 hp motor, runs warm but not overly hot. Yes, cut out the valve on the tank and welded on a stub of 4 inch pipe. I've been running it around 2/3 to 3/4 full, only weighed the rocks going in a couple of times but that seems to be right around 50 lbs. per load. I got those pillow blocks from Surplus Center, so I expect they'll wear out faster than, say, Fafnir. For the price I think they can be replaced a few times for the cost of more expensive bearings. At 42 rpms that thing does spin right along. Thanks for looking. Russ
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Post by nowyo on Oct 15, 2014 8:53:30 GMT -5
I have a silly question. Why not poke a pin hole or two in the cap? Something small enough that liquid can't escape, but a built up gas could use to vent out? Might have to experiment with hole sizes, but start small and work your way up. No matter how hard we may try to make it so, this ain't rocket surgery. Tried that, captbob. Used an ice pick to poke a hole in the center of the cap. It sort of works but the rubber is self-healing, and sludge plugs the hole. If the hole is too big it just leaks and makes a mess. Would be fun to play around with a little more. Russ
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 15, 2014 10:11:48 GMT -5
Thanks Russ. For the answers and the proprietary info.
Same reason about the bearings, too good of a deal @ Surplus Center
That is weird that that tank is sucked in. Those things are drawn over a dome form. Got stresses in them. Must be from removing material off inside and not outside. If you were running on bare shafts with 50 pounds of rock I could see it changing some way.
Totally cool rig.
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Post by captbob on Oct 15, 2014 10:37:01 GMT -5
Hadn't considered the grit plugging the hole they say; where there's a will ...
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