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Post by Donnie's Rocky Treasures on Jan 31, 2015 17:26:41 GMT -5
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Post by radio on Jan 31, 2015 18:02:23 GMT -5
Bummer! nice dino bone too!
I have found it much better to leave a wide gap between the ends of the ring shank and file them flat for a good fit to the back of the bezel setting. I'm guessing what happened here is the bezel setting took most of the heat and the ring shank wasn't heated as much causing a bad join. This is where one must judge by the color of the metal to determining if both pieces are evenly heated. The shank absorbs and dissipates heat more quickly than the bezel, so the torch must be played over it more so than the bezel backing. Also, I'm seeing a raised pattern on the shank. if you solder another full circle shank to a bezel setting, carefully file a flat spot on the shank to enlarge the contact area between the two and therefore get a much stronger join
Consider picking up a bezel burnishing tool to help roll the edges of the bezel evenly over the stone
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Post by Donnie's Rocky Treasures on Jan 31, 2015 19:22:48 GMT -5
Thanks a bunch, radio that information is very helpful. I have several burnishers, I just haven't finished rolling the edges yet. Right now I've got to work on getting the stone out of there so I can re-solder. I am going to make a much flatter spot on the shank. The solder was only on the outer edges of the shank in a couple of spots. I won't give up it!
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Post by radio on Jan 31, 2015 19:46:35 GMT -5
Thanks a bunch, radio that information is very helpful. I have several burnishers, I just haven't finished rolling the edges yet. Right now I've got to work on getting the stone out of there so I can re-solder. I am going to make a much flatter spot on the shank. The solder was only on the outer edges of the shank in a couple of spots. I won't give up it! If you need any help, please PM me and I'll confuse you even more:-) just play the torch more on the shank than the backing. Be sure to move the flame side to side so the shank heats evenly. the shank and the backing need to be a dull red, and ideally, get there about the same time for the solder to flow and get a good join. A very sharp pointed paring knife works well for unmounting stones. care must be taken to not cut yourself and work in very small increments around the bezel to keep from making a bunch of uneven pry marks around it.. Insert the point between the stone and bezel, then pry outward not going past vertical with the edge of the stone. move the knife tip a MM or so and repeat all around the stone. On some repairs I have done, I had to make several complete trips around the stone prying upward just a bit at a time. Folks often wonder why jewelery repairs are so expensive, but many repairs consume more time than creating a new piece
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Post by Donnie's Rocky Treasures on Jan 31, 2015 22:22:01 GMT -5
I got the stone out & cleaned things up after making a nice flat spot on the shank. Tomorrow I will solder again. Thanks for your help radio. I will pay attention to what you said about the flame.
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Post by radio on Feb 1, 2015 9:37:10 GMT -5
I got the stone out & cleaned things up after making a nice flat spot on the shank. Tomorrow I will solder again. Thanks for your help radio. I will pay attention to what you said about the flame. anytime You didn't ask for more advice, so hope I'm not annoying you by giving more. If I am, just tell me to shut up I presume you are using some type of soldering block? are you setting the bezel face down and setting the shank on the back of the mount? if you have a nice flat spot on the shank it will stay where you position it and greatly simplify the soldering process. you can use snippets of solder, but I prefer to use a short length of wire solder and just touch it to the piece when it's ready. it takes a lot of practice, but is a big time saver for me when i'm doing 5-6 or more pieces a day another hint is buy thicker bezel material in the 28 to 30 gauge range. It doesn't wrinkle and wave as easily as the thinner stuff and you have enough thickness so you can file and sand down any mistakes in the bezel. after soldering the bezel together, let it cool, then put the stone in it and run the burnisher around it a few times to shape it to the stone. raise the stone to the top part of the bezel and repeat. If the cab has a smooth girdle, this should get rid of any high and low spots around the circumference of the bezel. While the stone is still in the bezel, hit the solder join a few times with a fine file to smooth the join. Now with the stone facing upwards and still in the bezel, set both on a wide file laying on your bench and work the bezel and stone back and forth a few times to even up the base of the bezel for a close fit to your backing piece. Place your index finger on the stone and use use thumb and middle finger to push and pull over the file. Be careful not to roll over the top edge of the bezel when doing this. Turn it over and inspect the bottom of the bezel. It should be fresh cut all the way around. If there are any dark areas where the file didn't cut, it still isn't level, so carefully file more until it is shiny all around the bezel and will fit flush on your bezel backing for a good join. Silver solder will not fill a gap, so both pieces must be touching all the way around or you will have an unsoldered area where the two didn't meet. Use a needle tipped flux bottle and reflux as needed
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Post by Donnie's Rocky Treasures on Feb 1, 2015 10:35:49 GMT -5
You are not annoying me & I really appreciate your help. You obviously have been there, done that many times & I obviously need all the help I can get! My bezel material is 28 gauge. I am tempted to try the wire solder. Before we (teacher & me) were using a helping hand thingy to hold the shank to the bezel. This time I am tempted to not use it because I have a nice flat spot to where the shank rests nicely on the bezel back. My only concern is that once the fire hits it that it might move. I've got it set up & ready to go & plan on getting'er done today.
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Post by radio on Feb 1, 2015 11:43:32 GMT -5
You are not annoying me & I really appreciate your help. You obviously have been there, done that many times & I obviously need all the help I can get! My bezel material is 28 gauge. I am tempted to try the wire solder. Before we (teacher & me) were using a helping hand thingy to hold the shank to the bezel. This time I am tempted to not use it because I have a nice flat spot to where the shank rests nicely on the bezel back. My only concern is that once the fire hits it that it might move. I've got it set up & ready to go & plan on getting'er done today. unless you are using a flamethrower for a torch, it shouldn't move anything. apply the flux to the base, position the bezel and quickly play the flame across them to dry the flux. The flux will bubble and possibly move the shank if you apply heat too quickly, but once the flux hardens it has decent holding capabilities almost up to the point where solder will flow. If you experiment with wire solder, the two main things that make it difficult is in the beginning you can get massive gobs of solder on the piece and require lots of filing to remove. The next is you need a steady hand to feed the solder or you will bump the piece and bad words will find their way off your tongue If you are using a torch with a large flame I wouldn't recommend wire solder as it will melt and ball up at the end of the wire before it reaches the piece and you will get too much solder on the piece if you proceed. I use a Smith Little Torch so I can have very good control of the flame. With a smaller and hotter flame, one absolutely must learn to play the flame from side to side and/or in a circular motion to bring the piece to temperature. Failure to do so will cause partial melting of the piece or burn a hole in bezel or backing. toss those third hands in the dumpster and get a soft soldering block, a small box of straight pins and some crosslock tweezers. Use small needle nose to push the pins into the block and bend as needed to hold the pieces in position as needed. The third hands make an excellent heat sink and suck the heat away from the piece you are trying to solder. if you get the Alligator clamps too hot, the springs in them loose the temper and they no longer hold things in position. Never use a stick of wire solder to affix the bezel to the base. use three or four small snippets inside and up against the bezel, play the heat in a circular motion inside the bezel until the solder flows. A small flame is necessary and great care must be taken to not melt the bezel or cause the solder join on it to come apart. One can very carefully use a solder pick, tweezers or other small implement to gently push down on the bezel if it isn't touching the base. This is a trick not recommended for beginners though as bad things can happen and cause more of the above mentioned bad words
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Post by Donnie's Rocky Treasures on Feb 1, 2015 12:31:21 GMT -5
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Post by radio on Feb 1, 2015 12:42:23 GMT -5
Congratulations and great job!!!! on your next shank, use a length of double half round, make a mark at each end 12 to 15 mm in from the ends and use your jewelers saw to cut between the rounds down to the mark. File off each end at a good angle (30-40 degree) in preparation for fitting to the backing. Shape the shank to size on your ring mandrel, then use a bench or paring knife to open up the split ends of the shank. Either hand hold, or clamp in a wooden ring vise and with very light pressure, file the precut bevel flat on all four prongs at once. flux and solder on the base. after soldering, be sure to reshape the shank on the mandrel and check the prong ends for sharp edges
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Post by Donnie's Rocky Treasures on Feb 1, 2015 12:42:48 GMT -5
Oh, I also wanted to mention I'm using the EZ Torch with a disposable propane tank. Has been a little problematic though for the couple of larger pieces my teacher was helping me with. She ended up taking them home & using her acetylene torch.
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Post by Donnie's Rocky Treasures on Feb 1, 2015 12:47:19 GMT -5
Awesome, thanks for the instructions. I just happen to have some double half round coming & some crazy 8. I guess I better be practicing with the jewelers saw, I've been procrastinating on using it!! (looking ashamed here)
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Post by radio on Feb 1, 2015 13:49:17 GMT -5
Oh, I also wanted to mention I'm using the EZ Torch with a disposable propane tank. Has been a little problematic though for the couple of larger pieces my teacher was helping me with. She ended up taking them home & using her acetylene torch. I started with a very similar torch. after a few pieces I found I needed a much smaller flame for most things, and yes, the EZ torch will blow things around on the solder block You are using the smallest tip, right? If (when:-) you get a jewelers torch, save up and get a decent one and don't bother using the disposable Oxygen tanks. you will go broke feeding your torch with those. The disposable propane tanks are great and last a long time, but buy a refillable oxygen tank a cheap regulator at harbor freight. for $200 to $250 you will have a torch setup that will last many, many years. A $14 exchange on the oxy lasts me 3 to 4 weeks and would likely last you a year or more. One disposable propane bottle will last about 4 tanks (20Cu ft) of Oxygen unless you have a leak or fail to close a valve. I have entertained the thought of an Oxygen concentrator, but I have very little room to spare at my bench
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Post by Donnie's Rocky Treasures on Feb 1, 2015 13:57:01 GMT -5
Actually the largest tip is on it. I started with the smallest but switched to the largest when we were having trouble working on a large copper pendant & we determined the flame was just not hot enough. Perhaps I will switch back to the smallest again & work with it on the next pieces I am doing, both of them rings.
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Post by radio on Feb 1, 2015 14:41:18 GMT -5
Awesome, thanks for the instructions. I just happen to have some double half round coming & some crazy 8. I guess I better be practicing with the jewelers saw, I've been procrastinating on using it!! (looking ashamed here) do you have a bench pin? if not, get one like this pepetools.com/bench-tools/combination-bench-pin-anvil and modify the wood just a bit. find the center line about an inch and a half in from the end and drill about a 5/8 hole keeping it perfectly vertical if possible. next, take a fine toothed saw (hack saw will work in a pinch) and cut a "V" with the bottom, or narrow part of the "V" meeting the hole you drilled similar to this www.gessweincanada.com/product-p/814-0995.htmThe Pepe bench pin is very handy, sturdy and makes a great anvil also, but I can't find a slotted pin to fit them, so I make my own out of a solid pin. the one from Gesswein isn't sturdy enough and is to illustrate the "V" concept in the pin. on using your saw, make sure the blade is tight enough to make a musical note when plucked with a fingernail . use beeswax to lubricate the blade or run the blade through an almond, cashew or peanut. The teeth need to cut on the downstroke, so run the blade upwards into the nut so the teeth don't clog. Let the saw "float" in your hand, but lock your wrist and use your elbow to make the sawing motion. Make long strokes rather than short fast ones. My favorite all around blade size is a 3/0, but they break easily if you aren't experienced, so a 1 or 1/0 might be a better choice for you to learn with. Don't cheap out on blades! I like the Buzz Saw blades from Sante Fe Jewelers supply. I don't buy anything from Rio unless I simply can't get it anywhere else. I broke my rule of that a month or so ago when ordering some specialty stuff and added two German style saw frames to my cart. The tightening wing bolt on both of them stripped out after the first blade change! Cheaply made Chinese junk for for the most part, so beware of what you buy from where. I still use a German frame almost daily that I have used for over 20 years, but they don't make them like they used to I suppose I have since ordered Swiss style frames from SFJS
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Post by radio on Feb 1, 2015 14:48:46 GMT -5
Actually the largest tip is on it. I started with the smallest but switched to the largest when we were having trouble working on a large copper pendant & we determined the flame was just not hot enough. Perhaps I will switch back to the smallest again & work with it on the next pieces I am doing, both of them rings. be sure to adjust the tip for the best flame. They use room oxygen and have intake holes in the torch head just in front of the fuel inlet stem. turn the knurled ring back and forth while watching the flame to adjust the air intake properly. sorry if I am covering things you already know. I don't mean to make you sound like a moron, so please disregard advice on things you have mastered already
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Post by Donnie's Rocky Treasures on Feb 1, 2015 17:08:20 GMT -5
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,685
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Post by Fossilman on Feb 1, 2015 20:05:33 GMT -5
Hey,that is nice....
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Post by connrock on Feb 2, 2015 8:03:48 GMT -5
Success! Very nice ring and with a little help you fixed it too! connrock
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