Fossilman
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Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,685
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Post by Fossilman on Mar 4, 2015 17:31:50 GMT -5
I had a barrel of tumbles on final polish.....I cleaned it out and the tumbles were pure crap!!!!!! No shine to them,when they dried out!!! What the heck did I do wrong.....The second clean out on the same batch was better than the polish!!! No photos,not worth it...............
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Post by MrP on Mar 4, 2015 17:39:46 GMT -5
Try the ingawh two step!.......................MrP
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riverrock
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since April 2010
Posts: 1,395
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Post by riverrock on Mar 4, 2015 17:51:15 GMT -5
Yes you can try the two step or just go back one step. It would be nice to see what you are working with. I got to pet smart my self today , and am going to see what the little guys do.
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,546
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Post by tkvancil on Mar 4, 2015 18:32:32 GMT -5
You are doing polish in a rotary, Yes?
First thing that springs to mind would be cross contamination.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Mar 4, 2015 19:51:22 GMT -5
I wont go as far as to dismiss the new to the scene two step method but that would not have been my first choice of action. I would like to know a little more about the tumble to be able to offer more solid advice. What type of rocks were you tumbling? rotary or vibe? what type of filler? what ratio of rocks to filler? how full was the barrel? what type of polish? how much water?
I tumble crazy batches of mixed rock all the time using 5 full tumble steps plus a final burnish and the only time I ever had rocks look worse after polish was some very soft stones that really should not have been tumbled to begin with.
Don't get too discouraged should be an easy fix.
Chuck
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Post by MrP on Mar 4, 2015 20:32:22 GMT -5
I wont go as far as to dismiss the new to the scene two step method but that would not have been my first choice of action. I would like to know a little more about the tumble to be able to offer more solid advice. What type of rocks were you tumbling? rotary or vibe? what type of filler? what ratio of rocks to filler? how full was the barrel? what type of polish? how much water? I tumble crazy batches of mixed rock all the time using 5 full tumble steps plus a final burnish and the only time I ever had rocks look worse after polish was some very soft stones that really should not have been tumbled to begin with. Don't get too discouraged should be an easy fix. Drummond Island Rocks You are 100% right, all that needs to be taken into consideration, BUT, if all that is within reason, ingawh two step. Sorry clean-out is not my favorite thing to do, especially with a large load. There is a lot of work involved in making sure the load is 100% clean for the next step. I sure had a mixed batch in the load I did, 45 lb. vib, and I bet 98% had a very nice finish. In my large loads I always have stuff in there that doesn't belong. It is true that my main goal in most of my loads is to polish Slabs so the pendants are a byproduct of the run. Love this hobby...............................MrP
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Fossilman
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Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,685
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Post by Fossilman on Mar 4, 2015 21:52:10 GMT -5
It was agate and petwood-3/4 full,water to the top of the rock level,with 1 tbsp of grit per pound of rocks....It was a 3 pound rotory tumbler... Used small agates for filler............. Also was thinking,maybe I tumbled the polish stage to long.....What is the average time limit on the polish stage....
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Post by broseph82 on Mar 4, 2015 22:06:53 GMT -5
I thought with a rotary you're not supposed to use that much water?
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Mar 4, 2015 22:16:47 GMT -5
The water level does sound pretty high. I always went to the bottom of the top layer of rocks and usually even below that. Need to see a picture to see if you have a lot of cracks, crevices, and vugs for grit to have traveled from pre-polish to your polish stage. Petwood is know to be a bugger for that. All in all petwood and agates should have been an easy rock to get a shine on so it should be a simple fix.
Chuck
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Mar 4, 2015 22:20:53 GMT -5
It was agate and petwood-3/4 full,water to the top of the rock level,with 1 tbsp of grit per pound of rocks....It was a 3 pound rotory tumbler... Used small agates for filler............. Also was thinking,maybe I tumbled the polish stage to long.....What is the average time limit on the polish stage.... Hi Fossilman, Did you use any kind of thickener in the slurry? Early in my tumbling career I had some heartbreaks in rotary polishes when I just used the polish and water with the stones, even though I had a balanced load with smaller rocks. Petrified wood can be notorious for uneven mohs, which can create rough spots. In an unthickened polish slurry, these can be little sandpaper areas undoing all your hard work. Hope that's helpful.
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Fossilman
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Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,685
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Post by Fossilman on Mar 4, 2015 22:29:15 GMT -5
Also,I clean the slurry off the rocks with a pressure hose,than soap them in Dawn dish soap,rinse again,than put back into tumble barrel(after it was also cleaned with Dawn and fresh water)..
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Fossilman
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Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,685
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Post by Fossilman on Mar 4, 2015 22:31:12 GMT -5
It was agate and petwood-3/4 full,water to the top of the rock level,with 1 tbsp of grit per pound of rocks....It was a 3 pound rotory tumbler... Used small agates for filler............. Also was thinking,maybe I tumbled the polish stage to long.....What is the average time limit on the polish stage.... Hi Fossilman, Did you use any kind of thickener in the slurry? Early in my tumbling career I had some heartbreaks in rotary polishes when I just used the polish and water with the stones, even though I had a balanced load with smaller rocks. Petrified wood can be notorious for uneven mohs, which can create rough spots. In an unthickened polish slurry, these can be little sandpaper areas undoing all your hard work. Hope that's helpful. What kind of thickener???
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Mar 4, 2015 22:31:48 GMT -5
I'm thinking the extra water might be the culprit if it were just taking longer than usual to get a polish, but Fossilman said the stones had looked better after the pre-polish than the polish. I'm going to hypothesize that extra water would not make the stones regress, only slow the final polish process a little. I am also going to admit, however, that in a rotary polish, I err on the side of a generous amount of water myself, so I may be biased.
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on Mar 4, 2015 22:49:23 GMT -5
As a thickener, I use psyllium fiber in the form of generic Costco (Kirkland brand) Metamucil. I use the sugar free stuff, but lots of people actually use plain sugar as a thickener, so it really doesn't matter. It doesn't take much to get thick - in a three pound tumbler, maybe a tablespoon. That might even be too much. Put some in water, wait five minutes, and you'll see how thick it gets. Lots of people save and reuse good polish slurry and let it just keep getting thicker and thicker over time. Can't really do that if you've added the psyllium, as it's an organic substance and it will go bad over time. In fact, if you use it, I'd recommend adding about a 1/2 tsp of liquid bleach as well, to stop organic action in the barrel. (Not an issue if you move to vibe, where I only ever let it run 24 - 48 hours.) I'm sure others will have good thickener suggestions. Team?
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quartz
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breakin' rocks in the hot sun
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Post by quartz on Mar 4, 2015 22:55:54 GMT -5
I never got a polish with just rocks in the barrel, always use a padding material of leather pieces to 20-30% of the load, For a 3# barrel, I cut the pieces about 3/8" roughly square. I also think your water is a little high, no more than the bottom of the top layer of rocks. I run polish 10-14 days.
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Post by captbob on Mar 5, 2015 0:23:27 GMT -5
Hope it's not too much of a bother, but a picture of the load would help.
I wouldn't even think of using the two step method when your just getting back into tumbling, and especially in a rotary. Really no such thing as running the polish stage too long from my experience, but how long did you run it?
Thinking too much water, but would like to see the load too.
Also, did you do a final burnish after the polish stage? Might be you have a polish "film" on your rocks which is why they don't look shiny. Could be they polished just fine but are covered in a polish haze. (?)
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Mar 5, 2015 7:46:37 GMT -5
Never polished a rock in any tumbler without thickener. It sure may be possible.
I think some factory instructions for rotaries make no mention of thickeners for polish.
Agate in a rotary always gets 4 steps minimum. coarse-220-500-polish. 220,500 and polish at least one week each. Always have a mix of sizes, beware of rocks bigger than golf balls. Use at least 30% small rocks(less than 3/4 inch). Barrel 3/4 full rocks. Water below rock level by about 1 inch.
Note about water and slurry-some kind of thickener/lubricant is best. Not too thick, about like store bought orange juice with pulp left in it. Not near as thick as pancake syrup. Coarse and 220 step often makes it's own slurry, 500-1000 and polish are often too thin too suit me. I simply add 2-3 cups of sugar per 6 pounds of rock right from the start of 220-500-1000 and polish steps in the rotary. That way I am assured that the slurry is suspending and carrying the grit to the rocks right from the start.
Straight water clean water is not a good grit carrying slurry. The sooner it gets dirty from rock dust the better.
I have thrown clay, lime, a bit of wetted newspaper pulp, Karo syrup and such to get a slightly thick slurry going right from the start of each step. Sugar has always been repetitive, cheap, free from foreign particles and a great lubricant. So the sugar.
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Fossilman
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Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,685
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Post by Fossilman on Mar 5, 2015 10:19:11 GMT -5
Yes I just read about the Karo Syrup thing...So ok,It sounds like I had to much water to the rock level and not enough slurry... The rock sizes did vary,yes I ran it for two weeks also.... Will try the polish stag again....Run it two weeks and get a look.....I will also try the sugar trick... The smaller one pound barrel is doing great(with just Montanas)..
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,159
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Post by jamesp on Mar 5, 2015 10:50:58 GMT -5
Yes I just read about the Karo Syrup thing...So ok,It sounds like I had to much water to the rock level and not enough slurry... The rock sizes did vary,yes I ran it for two weeks also.... Will try the polish stag again....Run it two weeks and get a look.....I will also try the sugar trick... The smaller one pound barrel is doing great(with just Montanas).. The slurry is real important. I only add sugar from the start of each grit to have an instant 'slightly' thickened slurry right from the start. I do not want to wait for the slurry to thicken. It is just an insurance policy. Some add old dried slurry to get an instant slurry. And some add other additives. What ever works. About the most critical times of rotary tumbling is the next day to see if the slurry is not too wet and is carrying the grit. The rocks settle to a new level after 24 hours. So the slurry seems to rise after 24 hours. I almost always pour some liquid off after 24 hours. It is a step I never skip on each grit step. About always have to pour out some slurry to about an inch below the rocks after a day. Sure sounds like you had the slurry a bit high. Just remember, if step 2 or step 3 did not do it's job for whatever reason, you may have to go back and start over at the failed step. And it is not easy to tell if step 2 or step 3 failed. If either or both failed, you will not likely get a polish. That part of tumbling is unforgiving. 220-500 and even 1000 finishes can be hard to judge as to whether they failed or took by looking at the rocks sometimes in a rotary. Maybe others can tell, but I have a hard time with reading the finish of those middle grits.
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Post by captbob on Mar 5, 2015 11:59:32 GMT -5
Never polished a rock in any tumbler without thickener. It sure may be possible. I, on the other hand, have never used a thickener in any stage of a tumble. Fillers like ceramic media and plastic pellets - sure, and almost always. Except in the coarse grind phase. I'm sure many here have never used thickeners and yet somehow managed to produce a nicely polished load of rocks every now and then. Having not used a thickening agent such as sugar or syrup, I won't/can't comment on the benefit and/or advantages of using such. Tumbling rocks is a journey of constant experimenting and trial & error. Give thickeners a try if you get the notion. What could it hurt? The cost of experimenting is simply time and a cup or two of sugar! But, I don't believe that the lack of a thickening agent in this load was your problem. Yes, sugar (or whatever) may benefit your polish, but you need to find the cause of your lack of polish before trying bandaids or magic spells. Get your methods right and predictable results, then try shortcuts and helpful tricks. If you go to sugar (whatever) now, and get a good polish, you will always believe it was sugar that gave you that polish. What if the sugar had nothing, or very little to do with your results on the second try? You need to nail the polish as you were trying to do using "regular" methods before tossing in variables that may skew your results. ALSO, I would suggest going back a step before running your polish stage again. Polishing over "bad" polish probably isn't going to yield favorable results. Did you do a final brunish? just
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