Tommy
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Post by Tommy on May 6, 2015 12:49:08 GMT -5
I haven't done much (any) tumbling since I got addicted to the cabbing wheels – and truth is I didn't do much before that but had some reasonable success with beach pebbles. I've since amassed a large amount of cabochon shaped flat preforms from busted up slabs etc. and I'm getting the itch to start tumbling again. I have a QT66 rotary and an old vibrating tumbler I don't remember the model – I think Gemking.
So my questions for the experts – which method rotary or vibe would you recommend for flats and what would be your recipe for success including ratio of flat rocks to small rounded fillers etc.
Thanks in advance for as much or as little information as you can pass along to a noob.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on May 6, 2015 12:55:14 GMT -5
So my questions for the experts here's my answer while you wait for the experts. My vote goes for the vibe with at least 50 percent ceramic in mixed sizes. This was my last batch of cabs in the vibe. the close ups show a handful that are just preforms and not domed at all. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/68734/tumbled-cabs-12-6Chuck
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Tommy
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Post by Tommy on May 6, 2015 13:34:59 GMT -5
Those are beautiful Chuck thanks for the response. Can I ask your grit/time sequence to achieve such a beautiful lot – or is that like asking a rock hound to reveal his favorite location? Haha.Nevermind, I found it in the post. I'm being blond again haha. Thanks Chuck!
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Post by pauls on May 6, 2015 17:13:14 GMT -5
I don't think it will matter too much which you use, flat bits of slabs tend to slide so will get thinner rather than wear the edges off, its sort of counter intuitive, you would think the thin edge bit would wear away much quicker but it doesn't.
Paul
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grizman
freely admits to licking rocks
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Post by grizman on May 6, 2015 20:15:46 GMT -5
Hope ya don't think I'm the expert ya been waitin' on, but here's my take. The vibe is the way to go as the flats or slabs are already shaped, they just need smoothing. The catch is to make sure you have lots of various sizes of ceramics (like Chuck said) as flats love to stack and stick together. I know they slide against each other some, but you need the ceramic media to help keep them apart and do some of the pre-polishing. I usually don't put too many flats in my Loto all at the same time. I put some of my beach stones in along with the ceramics. This seems to work for me, but it is more experimentation than any real knowledge.
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Tommy
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Post by Tommy on May 7, 2015 10:43:11 GMT -5
Thanks guys. Drummond Island Rocks and grizman is it critical that ceramic media be used or do you think that 50% broken bits of rock of similar hardness will suffice? How full would you make the bowl total including flats and media? Someone gave me this vibe and I'm not sure how large the bowl is but approx. how much water vs. grit etc.?
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on May 7, 2015 11:11:14 GMT -5
not sure what size bowl that is. kinda looks like a 10 pounder? Water amount is the same for all bowl sizes. you can start by placing my rocks and ceramics all in a tupperware dish full of water then dump the water, rocks, and ceramics into a collander over a bucket. the rocks go into the vibe just like that. Wet but no extra water. You will need to check the rocks and probably squirt small amounts of water in 2 or three times a day during 120/220 stage but for 500, 1000 and polish check and add water if needed one time a day. Do not over add the water. Squirt a few times then give it a minute to check the action before adding more. You can always add more but if you add too much you cant fix that.
I use a lot-o and with cabs I fill it right to the top. I want a real gentle tumble for my cabs. no room for bashing. The water part is easier on a lot-o because the bowl is not attached to the frame and has a smaller opening on top so we just put the rocks and ceramics in the bowl then fill it with water. Then we can just tip the bowl upside down with our hand under it and drain the excess water leaving the rocks wet but not dripping.
Chuck
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on May 7, 2015 11:22:32 GMT -5
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Tommy
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Post by Tommy on May 7, 2015 14:52:14 GMT -5
Thanks Chuck, that's good stuff. I had it in my mind that I would follow the rotary water formula and fill it up.
If that is a 10 lb bowl how much grit would you use?
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Post by Peruano on May 7, 2015 14:57:39 GMT -5
Tommy, Good advice so far but here's my 2 cents worth. 1. By all means use the small pieces, trims, and irregular bits of the same hardness as your slabs. You have all sizes, they are free, and they exactly match your slabs in hardness. 2. You want a good load in the vibe. Too light and it will rattle your material to death. Start with your rocks wet, start up the vibe with some Dawn detergent, and add just a bit of water at a time until the load quiets down (the soap foam cushions and carries grit up through the load (especially important if you have a bit too much water). You will be amazed how fast the material will process, but obviously its faster if you have knocked the sharpest edges off with the cab machine before you started. I run my vibe with top on but always start it for 30 min or so with top off so that I can regulate water, soap, and grit combo as its starting the cycle. Enjoy. Tom
In my 4-5 lb bowl, I'd use maximum of 2 Tsp of grit so 3 or so might be good to start with in your larger unit. Tom
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on May 7, 2015 15:20:07 GMT -5
these would be my stops for the loto which is about 4 pound capacity (stole from the web and modified to my liking)
Fine Grind 120/220 begin by loading clean rough into the Lot-o-Tumbler barrel, filling it to within about 1" of the top. If we don't have enough rocks to fill the barrel we add enough ceramic cylinders to bring the barrel up to operating level. We then fill the barrel with water to wet the rough and the inside of the barrel. We then cover the opening of the barrel with one hand and turn it upside down, allowing the water to drain out between our fingers. (The goal is to have the rocks wet - so that the grit sticks to them - but not have excess water that will wash the grit from the rocks.) One or two level tablespoons of a grit such as 120/220 silicon carbide is added to the barrel, the lid is replaced, the barrel is placed on the Lot-o-Tumbler machine and it is turned on.
As the tumbler runs the grit sticks to the surface of the wet rocks turning every rock surface into an instant piece of sandpaper. The tumbling action of the rocks in the barrel, removes material from the rocks and a thin layer of "mud" begins to build up on the rock surfaces.
After 24 hours of tumbling the rocks are ready for the next step. Instead of stopping the tumbler we remove the lid and add a few drops of liquid dishwashing detergent such as Palmolive or Dawn to the barrel and about three tablespoons of water. The soap and water form a froth that washes the grit and mud from the rocks. We allow the tumbler to run for another ten to fifteen minutes - until the rocks start to look free from grit and mud. We then stop the tumbler, remove the barrel and thoroughly clean the rocks, ceramic cylinders and the barrel - being sure to wash every speck of grit and mud from the rocks, cylinders and the barrel.
500 or 600 After the rocks, cylinders and barrel are thoroughly clean we return the rocks and cylinders to the barrel, fill it with water, turn it upside down and allow the water to drain. We then add about one teaspoon of 500 or 600 grit silicon carbide, replace the lid and tumble for 24 hours. At the end of 48 hours we stop the tumbler, rinse the rock.
After 24 hours of tumbling with 500 or 600 grit the rocks are ready for the polishing step. We repeat the ten to fifteen minute wash with dishwashing liquid and a few tablespoons of water and then clean every speck of mud and grit from the rocks, cylinders and the barrel.
Polish We have a special Lot-o-Tumbler barrel that we use only for the polishing step. We dedicate a special barrel to polishing to avoid grit contamination that can ruin a great polish. The thoroughly washed rocks and cylinders are placed in the polishing barrel and it is filled with water and turned upside down to drain. We then add one level teaspoon of aluminum oxide polish to the barrel, replace the lid and start the tumbler. At the end of 48 hours we stop the tumbler, rinse the rock.
burnish is optional and a full step in 1000 is optional too (same directions as 500 step)
Chuck
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
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Post by tkvancil on May 7, 2015 16:00:28 GMT -5
Tommy That Gemstone vibe looks a lot like a Thumlers vibe. I own a UV18 and like it well enough. As to volume I would fill it to the level of the center cone. Got this tip from the board. Thumlers says 3/4 full which is slightly over center of the bowl. In my experience this isn't enough and chipping can occur. When I filled mine to the cone the first time I got a much better shine than I did at 3/4 level. Stick to that now. For the UV10 (10# bowl) they recommend 12 tbs. 220, 6 tbs. 500, and 6 tbs. polish. 16, 8, and 8 for the UV18 (18# bowl). When I run mine I use 8tbs. 220, then 6tbs. for all my following stages. Get good results. Have been told I could likely get away with a little less but stick to what I know. What everyone else said about water is spot on. In my experience it is good for the action to slow down as the slurry builds. When adding water I add only enough to maintain the slower than original rate of action. Hope that makes sense.
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Tommy
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Post by Tommy on May 7, 2015 16:21:20 GMT -5
Thank you everyone for the input. I'm feeling edjamucated and confident - I think I'm going to load it up tonight and get started tonight.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on May 7, 2015 19:51:25 GMT -5
@ For the UV10 (10# bowl) they recommend 12 tbs. 220, 6 tbs. 500, and 6 tbs. polish. Have been told I could likely get away with a little less but stick to what I know. holy cow that seems like a lot of grit and polish in the loto with a 4.5 pound capacity I honestly use 2 tbs of 120/220 and closer to 1/2 TEASPOON of 500, 1000 and polish. I wonder why the uv10 at 2X the capacity of the loto is using 6 times the amount of 120/220 and 36X more 500,1000 and polish. Is my math right? 3 teaspoons per tablespoon and we are getting away with 1/2 teaspoon of 500,100 and polish. maybe Jugglerguy can chime in. I think we do it very similar. Just making sure there were no typos in the UV-10 amounts listed above. I thought all vibes would use similar amounts of grit and polish per pound. I am scratching my head at this one. Chuck
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on May 7, 2015 19:55:20 GMT -5
by the way these are the dimension of a UV-10 for comparison so if your bowl is around 10" diameter then its probably a 10 pounder (3 qt capacity)
Thumblers UV-10 Dimensions: 10" diameter x 11" high.
Chuck
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Post by orrum on May 7, 2015 20:03:22 GMT -5
Somebody ought to sticky Chucks recipe for Lotos.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on May 7, 2015 20:20:16 GMT -5
Somebody ought to sticky Chucks recipe for Lotos. I am starting to think the amount of borax (or other thickener) and the overall consistency of the mix has more to do with the outcome then the amount of grit/polish used. I am guessing I have run a minimum of 150 full batches using pretty much the same formula. This really is a bit of a science and if you do everything the same every time you can expect the same results. I have at at least one loto running 24-7 for three years and when needed I run two. Some might think it would be easier to get a uv-18 or something like that and only run one batch a month but I am a firm believer in concentrating on a smaller amount of rocks. Chuck
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Post by Jugglerguy on May 7, 2015 20:44:24 GMT -5
I use the same or less grit than Chuck in my Lot-O. I use 2 tablespoons of 120/220 or just 220. Then I use 1/2 teaspoon of everything after that. I also use 1 tablespoon of borax in every stage. I don't see any harm in doubling these amounts for a tumbler twice as big. If it works, think of the savings in grit in the future. If it doesn't work, you haven't lost much.
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Post by orrum on May 7, 2015 20:51:11 GMT -5
I use Chucks recipe up to the 1000 stage, there I add 1/8 teaspoon AO polish. Rest is the same. Full is a have to be, you will bruise and fracture stones and cabs if it's low on volume. I messed up a load once too by washing with Dawn and a full barrel of water.
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
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Post by tkvancil on May 8, 2015 15:21:07 GMT -5
@ For the UV10 (10# bowl) they recommend 12 tbs. 220, 6 tbs. 500, and 6 tbs. polish. Have been told I could likely get away with a little less but stick to what I know. holy cow that seems like a lot of grit and polish in the loto with a 4.5 pound capacity I honestly use 2 tbs of 120/220 and closer to 1/2 TEASPOON of 500, 1000 and polish. I wonder why the uv10 at 2X the capacity of the loto is using 6 times the amount of 120/220 and 36X more 500,1000 and polish. Is my math right? 3 teaspoons per tablespoon and we are getting away with 1/2 teaspoon of 500,100 and polish. maybe Jugglerguy can chime in. I think we do it very similar. Just making sure there were no typos in the UV-10 amounts listed above. I thought all vibes would use similar amounts of grit and polish per pound. I am scratching my head at this one. Chuck The amounts I gave came straight off of the Thumlers instruction sheet that came with my tumbler. I am also at a loss as to how much they recommend seeing as how I use roughly 50% and it does fine. I have yet to try cutting back more as I don't run the vibe often. For myself I get about 14# out of each batch rest being ceramic. I save about 85% on my grits over doing them the way I used to do in my 3# rotaries. Guess I'm satisfied with that.
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