jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,177
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Post by jamesp on Jul 16, 2020 12:29:40 GMT -5
Nice idea grumpybill. I can say that the Vibrasonic beat glass up no matter how much sugar I added. Sugar is great but it certainly had it's limitations in protection. I am surprised that the Lot-O is acting aggressively. Chipping stones for instance. I kept adding and adding weight to the Vibrasonic hopper until it finally became less aggresive. And lowered the hopper closer to the vibration source where it was not swinging so for per vibration.
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Post by broseph82 on Jul 16, 2020 13:13:51 GMT -5
Ahhh, I know this is a very old thread but I'm looking for similar advice - I want to tone my Lot-o down just a bit because it's chipping my stuff up (in a sea of media) but, fortunately for me (not so for him) I know someone who moved the stick and after months of trouble, just gave up and bought himself a mini-sonic. So "DO NOT MOVE THE STICK" resonates. broseph82 what happened with this? Did you move the stick? How does the story end? Well so many experts told me not to, so I moved it back. No matter how many damn polished pebbles or polished ceramics the lot-o can and will chip in the polish stage. Will it happen every time? Maybe not. Can it happen every time? Yes. I’ve had single pieces of obsidian with nothing but polished ceramics and a thick snot like slurry. Still got pitting and chipping. It happens. Just gotta make sure whatever you put in there isn’t worth an arm and a leg
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ataraktos
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 140
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 16, 2020 15:05:05 GMT -5
I replied in your other thread. I saw, thank you! In fact, I missed this whole thread till just now. Life with a 4 year old! =) The Rock Shed seems out of springs (I want a back-up set before I even seriously think about touching anything. =)
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ataraktos
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 140
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 16, 2020 16:57:32 GMT -5
Well so many experts told me not to, so I moved it back. No matter how many damn polished pebbles or polished ceramics the lot-o can and will chip in the polish stage. Will it happen every time? Maybe not. Can it happen every time? Yes. I’ve had single pieces of obsidian with nothing but polished ceramics and a thick snot like slurry. Still got pitting and chipping. It happens. Just gotta make sure whatever you put in there isn’t worth an arm and a leg Ha, I would never tumble anything terribly expensive. Except my time, that counts as pretty darn expensive, you know? aDave and others have pointed me to this thread about moving the stick. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/88524/lot-polish-stage-issue Other masters are suggesting lots of other things to try first. I'm on the fence about whether to try moving it or not. I feel like I've tried a fair amount of things - more media, less amount in the barrel, only one type of rock, sugar, borax, etc. And like, if the sweet spot for not getting dings with it is so hard to find, I don't know how even a handful have found it, you know? I'm talking basic stones too. Nothing advanced. If I was tumbling obsidian even, or feldspars, anything like that, I'd be more tolerant/understanding. Even quartz is a little more advanced. Heck, even petrified wood can be kind of fractured and possibly have weak spots. But my jaspers?! And yes, I have been trying pebbles too. At least they're beautiful, compared to the ceramics. I think mine aren't quite big enough, overall, and somewhere here I read a list of about 8 pointers - one of them being - too many smalls will glob up in the bottom over time. And, yeah, I'm familiar with that one. The small ceramics too, especially if they've worn even smaller. But the thing is, of course, the smaller they are, the better you'd think they are for cushioning and helping the grit into all the spaces.
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Post by knave on Jul 16, 2020 17:28:30 GMT -5
Very few people complain of the Loto being too aggressive. That’s a new one on me.
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EricD
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High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Jul 16, 2020 18:29:02 GMT -5
Well so many experts told me not to, so I moved it back. No matter how many damn polished pebbles or polished ceramics the lot-o can and will chip in the polish stage. Will it happen every time? Maybe not. Can it happen every time? Yes. I’ve had single pieces of obsidian with nothing but polished ceramics and a thick snot like slurry. Still got pitting and chipping. It happens. Just gotta make sure whatever you put in there isn’t worth an arm and a leg Ha, I would never tumble anything terribly expensive. Except my time, that counts as pretty darn expensive, you know? aDave and others have pointed me to this thread about moving the stick. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/88524/lot-polish-stage-issue Other masters are suggesting lots of other things to try first. I'm on the fence about whether to try moving it or not. I feel like I've tried a fair amount of things - more media, less amount in the barrel, only one type of rock, sugar, borax, etc. And like, if the sweet spot for not getting dings with it is so hard to find, I don't know how even a handful have found it, you know? I'm talking basic stones too. Nothing advanced. If I was tumbling obsidian even, or feldspars, anything like that, I'd be more tolerant/understanding. Even quartz is a little more advanced. Heck, even petrified wood can be kind of fractured and possibly have weak spots. But my jaspers?! And yes, I have been trying pebbles too. At least they're beautiful, compared to the ceramics. I think mine aren't quite big enough, overall, and somewhere here I read a list of about 8 pointers - one of them being - too many smalls will glob up in the bottom over time. And, yeah, I'm familiar with that one. The small ceramics too, especially if they've worn even smaller. But the thing is, of course, the smaller they are, the better you'd think they are for cushioning and helping the grit into all the spaces. I don't use small ceramic, they tend to do more harm than good. My media is usually large ceramic size or larger. Don't be afraid to move the rod. Mark where it was, it can be put back and it's not a critical adjustment. (Not like 1/32" matters)
You can even adjust your load weight to suit the machine.
If you are running 5 or so stones in media and still getting chipping? There is a huge problem. Let's get to the bottom of it with pictures of what you have going. Let us get very intimate with your ingredients, load, and process!
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ataraktos
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 140
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 16, 2020 20:19:25 GMT -5
I don't use small ceramic, they tend to do more harm than good. My media is usually large ceramic size or larger. Don't be afraid to move the rod. Mark where it was, it can be put back and it's not a critical adjustment. (Not like 1/32" matters)You can even adjust your load weight to suit the machine. If you are running 5 or so stones in media and still getting chipping? There is a huge problem. Let's get to the bottom of it with pictures of what you have going. Let us get very intimate with your ingredients, load, and process! Oh, no, not 5 rocks and still getting chipping! If I have to finish 5 at a time, I have enough rough hoarded for my great-great-great grandchildren. (And my only child is just 4) ... (But broseph82 sounds like he can still have problems with very small loads. he also sounds further along the acceptance scale than me.) So I just weighed and photographed my latest load (which is due to start 1000 grit but just picked up the dings that broke the camel's back in 500): 650 grams of jasper (yellow jasper from TRS and some gray jasper from Mail Order Gems, iirc) and 614 grams of petsmart aquarium gravel, sorted for the good stuff with no pits, cracks, etc.) That's only about 3 pounds but I was doing the 2 inches of headspace to get some better motion. I usually am closer to 4-5 pounds. 4-5 pounds would likely have been a greater percentage of media. In fact, this is the largest batch of rocks I've tried, so I feel like media/rock ratio should have been ok?) lemme see if i can add pictures ... that's different in a reply vs create a post, isn't it? Let's see if I just stick the links in here. If the links don't work, I'll try to create a new post and tag some folks. Rocks, kinda still wet, I try not to let them dry: photos.app.goo.gl/w77th2XcFTGTFcW77Gravel: photos.app.goo.gl/iDMPWdz3xSVxaZYPADing, ding, ding: (a few other dings too, not too many yet, but I have 1000 and polish to go.) photos.app.goo.gl/Y5UQFXjoRenkaTJR6And my dowel. I want to get a good measurement of this but this's the picture I have right now: photos.app.goo.gl/QEa5zowZEvd3WzXEAOh, and my setup. Yes, ratchet straps. Two. I have two big cinder blocks, topped with a paver. And those two straps round the whole thing (through the holes in the cinder blocks). On a rubber rug type thing. Motion is pretty good on start-up (looks like vids I've seen from Jugglerguy and others) but often stalls out (even in the finishing stages). I can't feel vibrations in the floor and can sit things on the cinder blocks without those things shaking. I felt like this would be as secure as those two included strips of tape on the bottom, while letting me take it apart, if needed.
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Jul 17, 2020 8:28:37 GMT -5
I can't tell for sure on the other two, but the top rock in the Ding picture the dings have rounded edges indicating it has been missing that chip for a while. I don't see any problem with your rock-to-media ratio. Your tuning bar is a little further towards the gentler side than I like mine to be, but looks about where mine was set at the factory. I also had issues with the action "stalling" after a day+ in whatever stage I was running until I made it adjustable. I normally run it just a little more aggressive than it was set at the factory, about the thickness of one of these nails closer to the frame: Do you ever hear the rocks chattering on each other? (it's pretty loud, you would be checking to see what's going on, I'm sure) This next one is where mine was set at the factory. When I broke my springs I was running it with the rod directly under the edge of the frame.
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saxplayer
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since March 2018
Posts: 1,327
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Post by saxplayer on Jul 17, 2020 9:08:15 GMT -5
I can't tell for sure on the other two, but the top rock in the Ding picture the dings have rounded edges indicating it has been missing that chip for a while.
I feel that chip likely was from the lot-o. I see a lot of these myself on stones I have meticulously screened prior. The chips happen, and the lot-o action rounds them off a bit after.
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saxplayer
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since March 2018
Posts: 1,327
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Post by saxplayer on Jul 17, 2020 9:24:42 GMT -5
Maybe, to get a consensus for everyone's lot-o machine.. we should all fill up a standard load and take a video of it running. Let's get a sense of the speed and action/movement, then use the video to show where your dowel is.
Hopefully this way we can compare across each other's setups and see what actions help. I have tons of bruising & chipping as well and it's been a constant struggle to figure it out.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jul 17, 2020 11:00:17 GMT -5
Maybe, to get a consensus for everyone's lot-o machine.. we should all fill up a standard load and take a video of it running. Let's get a sense of the speed and action/movement, then use the video to show where your dowel is. Hopefully this way we can compare across each other's setups and see what actions help. I have tons of bruising & chipping as well and it's been a constant struggle to figure it out. I would love to see the videos.
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ataraktos
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 140
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 17, 2020 11:04:48 GMT -5
I can't tell for sure on the other two, but the top rock in the Ding picture the dings have rounded edges indicating it has been missing that chip for a while. I don't see any problem with your rock-to-media ratio. Your tuning bar is a little further towards the gentler side than I like mine to be, but looks about where mine was set at the factory. I also had issues with the action "stalling" after a day+ in whatever stage I was running until I made it adjustable. I normally run it just a little more aggressive than it was set at the factory, about the thickness of one of these nails closer to the frame: Do you ever hear the rocks chattering on each other? (it's pretty loud, you would be checking to see what's going on, I'm sure) This next one is where mine was set at the factory. When I broke my springs I was running it with the rod directly under the edge of the frame. it IS possible that the top yellow jasper had at least some of those flaws going in! (It's got a ribbon of, I guess, quartz, running through it and some of the same clear material along the bottom that I didn't want to grind away to nothing.) But I don't remember the chips being quite so bad. I could have just forgotten the specifics on that one and I do sometimes "promote" rocks with flaws, if there's an interesting spot on them I don't want to lose. But the other two (and many others, over previous batches) definitely, without a doubt, new from the lot-o. Hard to tell on the pics but the inside of the chips are all matte too because they haven't seen all the grit from the previous stages. Thanks for the pictures of your adjustable set-up! That's a great idea and I think that's what I'd like to do. (The hot-glue solution, honestly, kinda whispers - "there's gotta be a better way" =) ETA: It does change its sound when it bogs down. I wouldn't say it's quite the rocks banging against each other - but maybe? - just doesn't have quite the nice "quiet" hum that it normally does. I can get some videos and stuff this weekend hopefully. Though, I'm not sure how helpful that will be as I think, in the beginning, my motion looks pretty like others I've seen. But y'all can probably point out things I don't know to look for!
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Jul 17, 2020 11:53:31 GMT -5
I'm not sure it was in this thread that jamesp mentioned damage being caused by "mexican jumping bean" type action of the rocks at the top of the load. It's a great analogy. Have you seen your rocks near the top basically bouncing?
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billdean
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since April 2020
Posts: 153
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Post by billdean on Jul 17, 2020 12:26:17 GMT -5
If there bouncing you would hear them chattering against one another. It's pretty obvious in the Lot-o. Sorry I see someone else said the same thing.
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ataraktos
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 140
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 17, 2020 17:01:57 GMT -5
EricD and billdean - no, no never anything at all close to jumping beans (thank goodness - the chipping wouldn't be a mystery if it was doing that! =) I am almost wondering if the damage can happen during the bogging down - like the stones maybe repeatedly jostling against the same spots since they aren't rolling around much? I had been thinking "borax bogs down for me" (and even saw another post here, somewhere, echoing that experience) ... so I switched to sugar/gravel and that still bogs down. So I'm thinking maybe it's at least partially the tuning and not completely the slurry thickener/media/operator ;-) that's contributing? Eric - what did you replace the rod with? something longer would be nice if i'm going to be moving it. I think I'm going to get the husband to drill some holes. I'll take some videos first and mark/measure stuff of course.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 17, 2020 18:08:17 GMT -5
EricD and billdean - no, no never anything at all close to jumping beans (thank goodness - the chipping wouldn't be a mystery if it was doing that! =) I am almost wondering if the damage can happen during the bogging down - like the stones maybe repeatedly jostling against the same spots since they aren't rolling around much? I had been thinking "borax bogs down for me" (and even saw another post here, somewhere, echoing that experience) ... so I switched to sugar/gravel and that still bogs down. So I'm thinking maybe it's at least partially the tuning and not completely the slurry thickener/media/operator ;-) that's contributing? Eric - what did you replace the rod with? something longer would be nice if i'm going to be moving it. I think I'm going to get the husband to drill some holes. I'll take some videos first and mark/measure stuff of course. Usually bogged down action does not damage rocks. If I had to guess what damaged yours, from the information I have, I would say there were fractures there in the stone before you ever got them. They became more evident after vibrating them several billion times by releasing a small part of the stone.
You still need to share your vibe recipe! Grit, Time, Additives.
I replaced it with 3/8" steel rod, although the dowel is 5/16".
I also added plastic from a windshield washer bottle between the springs since they wear on each other.
To top that off I used the broken spring ends below the springs on the frame side to spread the load where the springs broke. You can see that in my 2nd photo above. It's blurry because the vibe was in motion.
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billdean
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since April 2020
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Post by billdean on Jul 17, 2020 18:09:14 GMT -5
I have very little problem. Why change an all ready perfect machine Well my video didn't work….sorry 500 grit
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EricD
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Member since November 2019
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Post by EricD on Jul 17, 2020 18:14:04 GMT -5
Maybe, to get a consensus for everyone's lot-o machine.. we should all fill up a standard load and take a video of it running. Let's get a sense of the speed and action/movement, then use the video to show where your dowel is. Hopefully this way we can compare across each other's setups and see what actions help. I have tons of bruising & chipping as well and it's been a constant struggle to figure it out. Since I can adjust mine any way I like it, I will refrain from posting a video of every level of vibration, every combination of slurry consistency, media ratio, additives, grit size and amount, and moisture level.
However if anyone would like a video of what damages rocks, I CAN provide that next time I run a load!
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EricD
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High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
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Post by EricD on Jul 17, 2020 18:15:13 GMT -5
I have very little problem. Why change an all ready perfect machine Well my video didn't work….sorry It worked Bill. Thanks!
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billdean
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since April 2020
Posts: 153
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Post by billdean on Jul 17, 2020 18:26:21 GMT -5
One thing I might add is I wanted another barrel for my lot-o. When I received it, it looked a little heavier than the one that came with the machine. I feel the new barrel doesn't work as well as the old one. I have tried it several times and am disappointed in it. It does see to bog down a little bit easier if you don't take your time adding the grit and stuff in. I add one thing at a time and don't go to the next until it is mixed well.
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