EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 17, 2020 18:51:33 GMT -5
One thing I might add is I wanted another barrel for my lot-o. When I received it, it looked a little heavier than the one that came with the machine. I feel the new barrel doesn't work as well as the old one. I have tried it several times and am disappointed in it. It does see to bog down a little bit easier if you don't take your time adding the grit and stuff in. I add one thing at a time and don't go to the next until it is mixed well. I pour my ingredients in while the barrel is off the machine, learned that from knave. For polish on medium sized rocks (maybe 5 or 10 per barrel (3/4" to 1.5", less if larger, more if smaller) ) that's 3T sugar, 1/2t polish - just dumped in, and no rush to start the machine. It mixes it's self fine. For cabs I run 11 of them and use no sugar. They aren't heavy enough to cause any damage to each other.
If you have a well tuned vibe, it doesn't matter if you dump it all in or sprinkle slowly.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 17, 2020 18:54:06 GMT -5
One thing I might add is I wanted another barrel for my lot-o. When I received it, it looked a little heavier than the one that came with the machine. I feel the new barrel doesn't work as well as the old one. I have tried it several times and am disappointed in it. It does see to bog down a little bit easier if you don't take your time adding the grit and stuff in. I add one thing at a time and don't go to the next until it is mixed well. Does one of them have a smooth bottom and one have a dip in the bottom?
If so that could cause the difference.
Added weight to the barrel it's self would need you to use a lighter load of rocks to get the same action without an adjustable dowel
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ataraktos
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 17, 2020 20:02:05 GMT -5
EricD - grits - I've been using 1 TBSP 120/220 SIC 1/2 tsp 500 AO 1/2 tsp 1000 AO 1/2 tsp AO polish I try to let those go for 48 hours per stage. Sometimes a little less because it's bogged down and I just get tired of tending to it. My ideal would be at least 48 hours for each step. And even better if it could just run longer in the finishing stages, if I wanted to. For 120, I clean out after 12 hours (so that's roughly 4 clean-outs, 4 TBSP grit totale. When it's bogged down enough to need a clean out, the slurry is smooth to the touch/seems broken down). First thing, I do the fill with water, drain until *no* drips come out. Then start up and immediately add grit and additives. I have a spray bottle for adding water and a bag of metamucil to sprinkle if I add too much water (which I only ever do trying to un-bog-it). As for additives to try to thicken the slurry, I've tried sugar alone. That was between 4-5 tbsp per stage to make a good difference. (Although I think I've since refined my initial draining technique - kind of rolling the barrel in the air some - to squeeze a few more drops of water out.) I've tried borax - 1 TBSP in 120 and 2 TBSP in the other stages. Lately, I've tried less sugar - 1 TBSP and 1/4 tsp of psyllium and a few squirts of hand soap, to try to keep things moving, when needed. When I first got the machine, with just rock, grit, ceramics, I didn't get any bogging down. But I did have a fair amount of chipping, up to 30% of the last load, when I was like, man, I just can't have this. So since then, I've been trying to sort the chipping, with additives and changing my media to gravel. But with these changes, I've had the bogging down by about half-way through, when lucky. Sometimes sooner. And I still get some chipping. Though less than with no slurry thickeners. I measured my bar - nearly 3/4 inch back from the frame (measuring from the middle of the bar to the edge of the frame). Weird that it works initially, as well as it does, because it seems as far back as aDave 's in the epic move-the-bar thread). I guess there are a lot of other variables - including variances is set-up, spring stiffness, even these barrels. (Did I read the barrels are toilet plungers? Was that a joke?) Thanks for the replacement bar details.
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ataraktos
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 17, 2020 20:29:26 GMT -5
One thing I might add is I wanted another barrel for my lot-o. When I received it, it looked a little heavier than the one that came with the machine. I feel the new barrel doesn't work as well as the old one. I have tried it several times and am disappointed in it. It does see to bog down a little bit easier if you don't take your time adding the grit and stuff in. I add one thing at a time and don't go to the next until it is mixed well. I pour my ingredients in while the barrel is off the machine, learned that from knave . For polish on medium sized rocks (maybe 5 or 10 per barrel (3/4" to 1.5", less if larger, more if smaller) ) that's 3T sugar, 1/2t polish - just dumped in, and no rush to start the machine. It mixes it's self fine. For cabs I run 11 of them and use no sugar. They aren't heavy enough to cause any damage to each other.
If you have a well tuned vibe, it doesn't matter if you dump it all in or sprinkle slowly.
Yes, my real bog downs occur hours after starting. If I dump things in too fast, it might get a little "choked up" but it works out quickly. I'd been mixing all my stuff together in (grit specific, washed peanut butter jars - nice to shake it all up and distribute it evenly) ... i'll try adding it with the machine off next time.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 17, 2020 20:37:29 GMT -5
Well. I can't see anything you're doing wrong, and I also don't see how making it more or less aggressive will help at all. Something is missing.
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ataraktos
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 17, 2020 21:52:27 GMT -5
Well. I can't see anything you're doing wrong, and I also don't see how making it more or less aggressive will help at all. Something is missing. Well ... that's good ... and bad too. I'm still going to drill and move the bar, LOL. If I could keep my 5-10% chipping with thickened slurry and not bog down totally half way through, that'd be some improvement at least over more chipping without any thickener. Maybe then I could focus more on tweaking the load amounts or something, rather than probing to keep it going. Maybe also, somehow I've just picked chip-prone rough? Like, I've run combinations of only about 9 sources of rough as pieces made their way out of coarse. Now that I'm building up a stash of more that are ready for finishing, I've had enough to try batches of one or two types all together instead of a mix (all 7s, still).
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 22, 2020 6:54:52 GMT -5
You seem to be have mastered the adjustments on the Lot-O EricD. All of my adjusting energy was spent on the Vibrasonic, I have no time spent in tinkering with the Lot-O. It sits unused. So I was thinking about a modification to the Lot-O that appeals to me that would increase it's production time. I am certain higher amplitude vibration is the key damaging factor in a vibe. So that would be a focus in the modification. Speed would be the main objective though. Modification would be simple - replacing the AC Lot-O motor that turns at 3000 to 3450 rpm(do you know the rpm ?) with a small twin shaft DC motor turning at say 5000 to 10,000 rpm. Home made counterweights set up just like the lot-O counterweights except smaller in diameter to satisfy my reduced amplitude jihad. Maybe a slight increase in power output. Keep in mind that the limit on maximum rpm for most AC motors is a multiple of 60Hz at +/- 3600 rpm. DC motors don't have that limitation. The maximum frequency(rpm) on all factory vibes is 3450 rpm as far as I know unless a pulley is used to increase the output rpm. Ultrasonic vibration ay be defined as 20,000+Hz, not sure. Your thoughts appreciated.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 22, 2020 7:30:03 GMT -5
You seem to be have mastered the adjustments on the Lot-O EricD . All of my adjusting energy was spent on the Vibrasonic, I have no time spent in tinkering with the Lot-O. It sits unused. So I was thinking about a modification to the Lot-O that appeals to me that would increase it's production time. I am certain higher amplitude vibration is the key damaging factor in a vibe. So that would be a focus in the modification. Speed would be the main objective though. Modification would be simple - replacing the AC Lot-O motor that turns at 3000 to 3450 rpm(do you know the rpm ?) with a small twin shaft DC motor turning at say 5000 to 10,000 rpm. Home made counterweights set up just like the lot-O counterweights except smaller in diameter to satisfy my reduced amplitude jihad. Maybe a slight increase in power output. Keep in mind that the limit on maximum rpm for most AC motors is a multiple of 60Hz at +/- 3600 rpm. DC motors don't have that limitation. The maximum frequency(rpm) on all factory vibes is 3450 rpm as far as I know unless a pulley is used to increase the output rpm. Ultrasonic vibration ay be defined as 20,000+Hz, not sure. Your thoughts appreciated. The sticker says 3000/2500 Jim. I like your high rpm idea, but I'm not sure the springs or the gravitational force on the load can react that quickly. If I had one just sitting around I might give it a shot...
Edit: I do have a 16k rpm DC motor laying around unused, perhaps I'll clamp it on the vibe today and see if anything happens
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 22, 2020 14:29:07 GMT -5
THE AUDIO IN THE LINK BELOW IS VERY LOUD. BE READY. BE VERY READY
Looks like it would work Jim.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 22, 2020 19:11:10 GMT -5
I was thinking about mounting with the same orientation as the original motor. You got some results with the motor vertical. Interesting.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 22, 2020 19:20:10 GMT -5
I was thinking about mounting with the same orientation as the original motor. You got some results with the motor vertical. Interesting. I tried it both ways, it looked the same so I didn't get footage The vibe not only has up and down movement, also forward and backward pivoting on the rod it's self. I chose to show the forward and backward vibes
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 23, 2020 4:39:29 GMT -5
close as I could find in a dual shaft. EBAY China motors. I doubt this one is rated continuos duty, probably used in a toy. Says ball bearings, a good thing... Variable speed 3000 to 5800 as simple as zapping with 12vdc to 24vdc, so frequency can be varied to double stock rpm. size close at 3 inches long, 2 inches diameter for adapting to original motor mounting placement. 6mm shaft 4mm mounting threads on face(one side or 2 sides ?) weighs one pound 1/25 hp/30 watts(Lot-O motor about 1/20 hp) They are in China, ordered 2. May have to swap out face mount end plates for two ended face mounts.
As a starting point - intent would be to reduce counterbalance diameter to ~half, use same amount of counterbalance mass, and run at 5800 rpm therefore reducing amplitude of hopper and amplitude/distance of spring travel. High amplitudes eat rocks and also eats springs. Hoping the hopper can keep up with the excitation if the amplitude is reduced substantially. I believe the counterweights are matched left to right on the Lot-o.
taping a pencil to the stock Lot-o may trace the side motion shape when viewed axially with motor. Probably elliptical/oval, more side to side than up/down ? Thoughts/criticisms welcome.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 23, 2020 4:44:28 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 23, 2020 5:16:04 GMT -5
"I like your high rpm idea, but I'm not sure the springs or the gravitational force on the load can react that quickly. If I had one just sitting around I might give it a shot..."
Harmonics may be involved. The Lot-O say has a 3000 rpm motor. The hopper may be vibrating at 3000 vibes per minute, or possibly 6000 vibes per minute depending if it is hitting on the 2nd harmonic. Or it could be skipping every other impulse and only doing 1500 vibes per minute or even 750. It could be unstable and exhibiting unstable/erratic vibration totally unrelated to 3000/min. Most vibrating systems vibrate at a multiple or dividable rate of the excitation in this case 3000 motor rpm.
It would take a one quick vibration analyzer measurement to know. I could probably take it to Georgia Tech and have the students attack the Lot-O with their fancy analyzers. It would also measure the amplitude in inches(or mm). These would be signatures and reveal the natural frequency of the Lot-O system.
Or a cheap hand held vibration analyzer could be used since these are one dimensional basic measurements. I fear it would be difficult to program for my old brain due to the use of new fangled icon programming language. I could have used it when dialing in the Vibrasonic. It has a desirable signature to target.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 23, 2020 5:43:07 GMT -5
This one will measure vibration displacement(amplitude) from .001mm to 1.999mm - perfect, guessing .5mm for a rock vibe Measures 10/sec to 1000/sec. Or 600 vibes/min to 60,000 vibes/min - perfect guessing 700 to 6000 vibe/min for a rock vibe Hell, I'll order it. May need help programming it by one of you cell phone masters EricD knave
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ataraktos
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 25, 2020 14:31:15 GMT -5
Definitely interested in what you find out, if you buy this little gadget jamesp! I'll admit, I looked at them too, when you mentioned them earlier! =) I was a little scared off by the ones that are around $1000-2000 range and was worried something more affordable like this one wouldn't be that great (and I don't have the background to know the difference)? I'd rather spend $1000 than completely waste $100 ... but if I was going to spend $1000, heck, that would buy a lot of rocks! ;-)
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 25, 2020 19:14:32 GMT -5
Definitely interested in what you find out, if you buy this little gadget jamesp! I'll admit, I looked at them too, when you mentioned them earlier! =) I was a little scared off by the ones that are around $1000-2000 range and was worried something more affordable like this one wouldn't be that great (and I don't have the background to know the difference)? I'd rather spend $1000 than completely waste $100 ... but if I was going to spend $1000, heck, that would buy a lot of rocks! ;-) I had used a fancy Hewlett Packard analyzer years ago when troubleshooting bearings in machinery. Using one for troubleshooting is a much more nebulous task because the frequency of the problem often involves finding the amount of balls or rollers are in the bearings and the rotation speeds of the shaft to figure the frequency or a multiple of it. Often involving 3 dimensional vibration. And the first thing to check is that the bearing is tightened down well. Our vibes have an intentionally FIXED frequency. Wow. The Lot-o and my Vibrasonic is going to be almost completely be a vibration in a 2 directions situation. Great. Torus/donut shaped vibe bowls have a serious third dimension involved and much more complicated. So looking at the shaft end the hopper will be vibrating left-right and up-down. The distance the hopper travels in the left-right direction(measurement #1) and up-down direction(measurement #2) will tell the story. Then check the frequency to make sure it is 3000/min(Lot-O rpm) or 50Hz to be sure it is following the motor rpm. It could be only vibrating at 25Hz(skipping a beat) or less or 100Hz or more(double beating like a heart). Fortunately the Vibrasonic has a 3450 rpm motor. Looks like a 1:1 drive pulley to the counterbalance shaft. So this test device will be impressive if it measures a 3450/min vibration rate for the Sonic and a 3000/min rate for the Lot-o. Or a multiple of either. In any case it will simply be the distance traveled per vibration that will answer the question of damaging vibration versus constructive vibration. A $100 vibration analyzer could have serious limitations. One dimensional displacement and the basic frequency measurements should not be one of them. The wrench did a fine job of differentiating between a higher amplitude and a lower amplitude. But provided no quantitative measurements. Almost all vibrating systems will experience amplitude reduction when mass is added to the vibrating member. That was a no brainer.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 25, 2020 19:17:32 GMT -5
I am anxious to use the little analyzer ataraktos.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 25, 2020 19:23:30 GMT -5
The meter I bought was rated #1 in this video. Perhaps the company that made the meter made the video lol.
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