jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
|
Post by jamesp on Dec 5, 2016 9:25:17 GMT -5
I hope this vibe run does it! Really looking forward to seeing this big ol' bloodstone polished up nice. Figured it would be an easy tumble. The smalls may be the answer. The fellow that tumbled the giant Stone Canyon used garnets in the rotary for media. Did a dandy job. Gettin ready to go take video of vibe running 30 grit over night. Hope it is not constipated.
|
|
|
Post by captbob on Dec 5, 2016 11:04:40 GMT -5
I've got a few rather large rocks from our trip that I want to tumble whole. Some of them have that surface cement like crap on them. You think that tumbling them alone in a barrel with nothing other than ceramics would remove the crud on them?
ETA: I also have a couple of those yellow rocks with that caliche crap on them that I would like to try to remove. Don't know if you remember the yellow rocks, not mosses or anything worth having, but a vivid yellow skin with the most boring/plain innards. If I could save the yellow skin when tumbling/polishing, I think they would be spectacular. Again wondering if ceramics only in the barrel with one may be the way to go, because I think other rocks in the mix would take the yellow "skin" off in a quickness.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 12:53:04 GMT -5
Caliche should be soluble in pool acid. A couple drops of acid direct on the surface will tell the tale.
1:1 or 3:1 acid to water should slow the violent reaction.
Safety: Always add acid to water.
Let soak in a bucket until gone hours days week. You (specially you) never try to hurry a stone!
Keep lid on bucket and do this away from any thing you do not want to rust.
ETA: if the job was started but doesn't seem to finish, this is a sign not enough acid was present. Add more to restart. No need to clean up or anything just add more to your neutralised solution.
The only clean up is at the end. If you are worried about putting acid down the drain you can neutralise your solution with baking soda or powdered chalk used to line baseball fields.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
|
Post by jamesp on Dec 5, 2016 18:48:59 GMT -5
I've got a few rather large rocks from our trip that I want to tumble whole. Some of them have that surface cement like crap on them. You think that tumbling them alone in a barrel with nothing other than ceramics would remove the crud on them? ETA: I also have a couple of those yellow rocks with that caliche crap on them that I would like to try to remove. Don't know if you remember the yellow rocks, not mosses or anything worth having, but a vivid yellow skin with the most boring/plain innards. If I could save the yellow skin when tumbling/polishing, I think they would be spectacular. Again wondering if ceramics only in the barrel with one may be the way to go, because I think other rocks in the mix would take the yellow "skin" off in a quickness. If the ceramics don't, add a 1/4 dose of SiC 80 to the ceramics and kiss it good bye. Excellent way to clean up rocks.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
|
Post by jamesp on Dec 5, 2016 19:00:48 GMT -5
2 pound bloodstone trapped in top of vibe hopper due to too much media. Note #4 grit almandine garnets for void fill between media. Assuming they help, no proof. That is what #4 grit looks like. Mined from Emerald Creek Idaho, old stock.
Trapped:
After removing some media so it would sit down in the wide section:
|
|
|
Post by captbob on Dec 5, 2016 19:09:37 GMT -5
I can't ever get one of those Viking vibes - I could watch that for hours!
|
|
|
Post by wigglinrocks on Dec 5, 2016 19:25:10 GMT -5
Holy crap , think that one might be exceeding the recommended size a bit ? Seems to be moving well , considering it's size .
|
|
richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
|
Post by richardh on Dec 5, 2016 20:10:52 GMT -5
I've got a few rather large rocks from our trip that I want to tumble whole. Some of them have that surface cement like crap on them. You think that tumbling them alone in a barrel with nothing other than ceramics would remove the crud on them? ETA: I also have a couple of those yellow rocks with that caliche crap on them that I would like to try to remove. Don't know if you remember the yellow rocks, not mosses or anything worth having, but a vivid yellow skin with the most boring/plain innards. If I could save the yellow skin when tumbling/polishing, I think they would be spectacular. Again wondering if ceramics only in the barrel with one may be the way to go, because I think other rocks in the mix would take the yellow "skin" off in a quickness. I have a couple of 3” Rio biscuits that I picked up near Laredo and they have been running for two weeks in my tumbler with 30 grit. It has broken down three times and there is still some of that white crap on them. It seems tougher than I expected. I got a couple of pretty yellow rocks that were pretty much white inside when I cut them open. Not sure if it is the same stuff you have but the pretty yellow was just a fairly thin layer on the outside. I wished I hadn't opened them once I saw the inside, I think they would have been really pretty if I had just tumbled them whole.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
|
Post by jamesp on Dec 5, 2016 20:13:43 GMT -5
I can't ever get one of those Viking vibes - I could watch that for hours! Hypnotic trance, glazed eyes. Much quite with new motor.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
|
Post by jamesp on Dec 5, 2016 20:17:31 GMT -5
Holy crap , think that one might be exceeding the recommended size a bit ? Seems to be moving well , considering it's size . Viking says it is good for long objects like petrified limbs and small logs. People use them to tumble large stuff. Apparently the rule is if it rotates then it's fine.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
|
Post by jamesp on Dec 5, 2016 20:34:53 GMT -5
"I have a couple of 3” Rio biscuits that I picked up near Laredo and they have been running for two weeks in my tumbler with 30 grit. It has broken down three times and there is still some of that white crap on them. It seems tougher than I expected." Oh yes, it takes a lot of tumbling to remove the bleach layer on most moss biscuits. Good job for the diamond grinder. The dreaded Rio bleach white disease
|
|
ubermenehune
spending too much on rocks
Member since March 2016
Posts: 293
|
Post by ubermenehune on Dec 6, 2016 19:00:02 GMT -5
You've got a pretty high bar for perfection. I think that bloodstone is gonna look sick, even with the fracture and bruises.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
|
Post by jamesp on Dec 7, 2016 6:48:49 GMT -5
You've got a pretty high bar for perfection. I think that bloodstone is gonna look sick, even with the fracture and bruises. It takes a lot of effort and money to do tumbled rock. Might as well get it right. May end up with polish problems, softer rock often has to be treated gently, trickier to polish with my vibe anyway. The size does not help matters.
|
|
huskeric
spending too much on rocks
Member since May 2016
Posts: 353
|
Post by huskeric on Dec 7, 2016 9:30:00 GMT -5
Getting some fine polishes on those big ones, you are. Thinking about a 3/4 inch rubber divider to press fit into the Vibrasonic hopper. To divide it into two chambers for a big rock in each side. I should think a slightly over sized carefully cut-to-fit-tight divider should stay put. Could make a pattern out of card stock paper. Cut rubber on band saw. Sand edges real nice. Wedge it in with vaseline press fit style. Could shift it left or right for varying rock sizes. Remove at clean out and reinstall. Maybe have two for three compartments to run 3 hardball size at same time. Thoughts ? If you were going to put a divider in, I would make an "H" shaped divider, maybe out of some Starboard. Cut a dado in each of the sides and then epoxy the center. It wouldn't have to even fit snugly in there, because all you are trying to do is keep the big guys from coming into contact with one another, so it could slide side to side and still maintain its mission. You may need to put something on top of it to prevent the rocks from just pushing it out of the hopper, but if you did that, you could easily divide the hopper into at least three sections.
|
|
megalotis
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since April 2009
Posts: 226
|
Post by megalotis on Dec 7, 2016 17:08:11 GMT -5
I rotary tumbled a piece of bloodstone, and it bruised pretty badly (much like obsidian). I don't know what it is about this stone (hyper brittle?) but it sure doesn't like to be tumbled much. I had some larger stones in with it, the largest being a couple of 1/2 pound pieces of willow creek jasper, that probably contributed. I may be able to fix it running it only with smaller stones; it's pretty enough that it may be worth a shot. I would post a picture, but I really hate dealing with the picture nightmare on this forum. Maybe I'll fight through that later.
Also, in agreement with James, in my experience the only way to deal with the white slobber on rio agates is to grind it off with diamonds before tumbling. That white stuff is TOUGH!
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
|
Post by jamesp on Dec 8, 2016 6:51:45 GMT -5
I rotary tumbled a piece of bloodstone, and it bruised pretty badly (much like obsidian). I don't know what it is about this stone (hyper brittle?) but it sure doesn't like to be tumbled much. I had some larger stones in with it, the largest being a couple of 1/2 pound pieces of willow creek jasper, that probably contributed. I may be able to fix it running it only with smaller stones; it's pretty enough that it may be worth a shot. I would post a picture, but I really hate dealing with the picture nightmare on this forum. Maybe I'll fight through that later. Also, in agreement with James, in my experience the only way to deal with the white slobber on rio agates is to grind it off with diamonds before tumbling. That white stuff is TOUGH! Brought back a whole bunch of Rio tumble size pebbles like 1-2 inches first trip out. Thought they would tumble fast since they were rounded by nature. Did not figure on the weathered outer layer to be so stubborn to tumble off. Ended up casting them in 6 inch grout blocks and mass sawing them with an 18 inch lapidary saw to mini-slabs and then tumbling them. As far as bloodstone, it seems to vary in hardness. 24 hours in siC 30 in the vibe and it undercut the green part deeply. Giving up on it. No doubt some bloodstone is real hard. This one is not. Was surprised, thanks for sharing your experience megalotis. 8-12 ounce stones seem to be the limit of critical mass in the rotary. Multiple stones of that size in the barrel need protection unless they are the hardest and toughest. Just about all stones that got rolled down that Rio Grande and survived do well in the rotary. Proof: Saw a 10 pound agate or chert cobble and notice there are nary a surface fracture around the outer 1/8 inch layer. Some how mother nature tumbled them or ground them in a fashion that the impacts were minimized. Not void of fractures, but not concentrated on the surface. Makes Rio stones great tumbling fodder except that coating. The Rio's plucked freshly out of caliche are mostly free of the bleached coating. Example, 6 pound Rio cobble with no fracturing at surface. Smoothly tumbled/ground by Ma nature. From caliche pit, dug by mining equipment and free of bleach coating. Making caliche pit stones el primo for the tumbler.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,555
|
Post by jamesp on Dec 8, 2016 7:10:26 GMT -5
Thinking about a 3/4 inch rubber divider to press fit into the Vibrasonic hopper. To divide it into two chambers for a big rock in each side. I should think a slightly over sized carefully cut-to-fit-tight divider should stay put. Could make a pattern out of card stock paper. Cut rubber on band saw. Sand edges real nice. Wedge it in with vaseline press fit style. Could shift it left or right for varying rock sizes. Remove at clean out and reinstall. Maybe have two for three compartments to run 3 hardball size at same time. Thoughts ? If you were going to put a divider in, I would make an "H" shaped divider, maybe out of some Starboard. Cut a dado in each of the sides and then epoxy the center. It wouldn't have to even fit snugly in there, because all you are trying to do is keep the big guys from coming into contact with one another, so it could slide side to side and still maintain its mission. You may need to put something on top of it to prevent the rocks from just pushing it out of the hopper, but if you did that, you could easily divide the hopper into at least three sections. Rick, so the divider would have openings and allow each section to have the small rocks mix ? Basically a baffle for the big rocks ? Just remember, I am having trouble with the smallest rocks migrate to the right, along with the slurry. To the point the left side wants to run dry. Like a vertical separator, except it is horizontal. Damn thing. The separators may best be sealed. Looking for a fatter hopper that has better mixing too. But, big rocks can still bump into each other w/fat hopper. May be best to have 3 separate hoppers for total isolation. Here is a Viking set up with two 4 pound hoppers. This would work too, big stone in each hopper:
|
|
|
Post by HankRocks on Dec 8, 2016 8:20:45 GMT -5
How about this theory as to why it's happening. The coriolis effect meaning the flow is rolling but a slow migration to the right. And since the slurry and the small rocks will settle to the bottom or in this case the right side. If you put a baffle, you will end up with two zones of the same thing, slurry and small to the right. If you put openings in the baffle then it will only allow the small to migrate to the right most zone and you are right back where you started.
And if this theory is correct and you were running this in the Southern Hemisphere the small and slurry would be to the left.
Since this is a rectangle rather than a circle, all the small gets trapped in the right side. In the circular vibration barrels the flow is to the right but there is no corner to get trapped in, so everything stays dispersed. I suppose that means that for the circular vibration tumblers the flow would be to the left in the Southern Hemisphere.
Ok that's as good as I can do without a couple of beers. and it's way too early for that.
H
|
|
|
Post by HankRocks on Dec 8, 2016 8:35:02 GMT -5
As far as fractures go, my guess is that a good percentage of them tend to occur along weak zones in the rock. With the river rocks a good many of these fractures have already happened, either during the de-composition of the original agate vein, or in the initial stages of weathering and washing down. Take a petrified log, it's is laid down intact, and then agatizes. As it is exposed by erosion then it tends to start breaking apart. As it begins to move or migrate, or the freeze cycles tend to break up further(maybe). So over the ages the rock that ends up deposited along the river has had most of the fracturing done getting there, and what's left is more resistant to further fracturing.
Ok that's two theories in less than an hour! My head hurts!!
H
|
|
huskeric
spending too much on rocks
Member since May 2016
Posts: 353
|
Post by huskeric on Dec 8, 2016 9:56:52 GMT -5
If you were going to put a divider in, I would make an "H" shaped divider, maybe out of some Starboard. Cut a dado in each of the sides and then epoxy the center. It wouldn't have to even fit snugly in there, because all you are trying to do is keep the big guys from coming into contact with one another, so it could slide side to side and still maintain its mission. You may need to put something on top of it to prevent the rocks from just pushing it out of the hopper, but if you did that, you could easily divide the hopper into at least three sections. Rick, so the divider would have openings and allow each section to have the small rocks mix ? Basically a baffle for the big rocks ? Just remember, I am having trouble with the smallest rocks migrate to the right, along with the slurry. To the point the left side wants to run dry. Like a vertical separator, except it is horizontal. Damn thing. The separators may best be sealed. Looking for a fatter hopper that has better mixing too. But, big rocks can still bump into each other w/fat hopper. May be best to have 3 separate hoppers for total isolation. Here is a Viking set up with two 4 pound hoppers. This would work too, big stone in each hopper: jamesp, I thought it would be OK if maybe the rocks were allowed to move back/forth, and that would keep the grit and everything more-evenly distributed. That's not vital, especially if you would rather keep the two almost as separate chambers. I don't know how precisely you could match the interior shape of your drum with an insert, but assuming you could, I was envisioning something that looks like my "ghetto-CAD" drawing below... __________________________________ | -------------------------------- | | | | | | | | | | | -------------------------------- | |__________________________________|
Obviously, it would need to fit a TEENY bit better than my awesome rendering, but if you left the spacing on the left/right sides, the divider could float back/forth with the material. That may be a bad thing, in which case, you could either just clamp it in place or use shims on the sides to hold it. Heck, if you got thick enough material, you could put dadoes in every inch or so on the top/bottom, and make them the full width of the hopper, and then just slide in the divider(s) to create whatever size hoppers you wanted. If you did that, you *may* want to make that a box instead of an H, just so the structure was more-rigid. You could even put a bottom in it if you REALLY wanted to contain things. Then it could be like a drawer divider. I'm just not sure what the contour of the bottom of your hopper is, and if that would work well. I know you can heat/shape that stuff, but at that point, you might just as well make a whole hopper rig yourself. Oooh, lightbulb moment!!! If you need to make it round on the bottom, you could take a length of PVC the width of the hopper, cut a line along the top, and then heat-bend the PVC into a U-shape channel that would fit inside the hopper. The dividers would be a bit trickier proposition at that point, but I have some ideas if you're interested...
|
|