jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 4, 2016 18:21:57 GMT -5
A water misting set up is just what you need for such a large pad. Constant mist on pad over a wider area than some drip system. just sayin' that will be five bucks
Dang, captbob. Only five bucks? I think you are not charging enough for your advice!
Did not see the $5 note. Thought it was edited in but I does not have an edit foot note.
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Post by captbob on Oct 4, 2016 18:56:17 GMT -5
I'm an idea guy. Always have been. Used to charge a boss 5 bucks for an idea whether it would make him 1k or 5k or ?. Got him trained to where he always had a 5 dollar bill on him.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 4, 2016 21:27:27 GMT -5
I'm an idea guy. Always have been. Used to charge a boss 5 bucks for an idea whether it would make him 1k or 5k or ?. Got him trained to where he always had a 5 dollar bill on him. Should have charged more.
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wampidytoo
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Post by wampidytoo on Oct 4, 2016 22:07:47 GMT -5
A water misting set up is just what you need for such a large pad. Constant mist on pad over a wider area than some drip system. just sayin' that will be five bucksA greenhouse mister would be perfect. Easy to hookup. May have to run a small filter on it, small beans. I ordered one of those diamond floor buffer pads to fool with. 13" X 200 grit. The ones you located, not the rubber pads. Those 14 inch rubber pads are drawing on me. They both have the same center mount holes. Sorry but mister nota gona worka gooda. The water has to be added at center of pad so it will be forced under the slab. A mister is just going to spray on top of the slab. Even with the center drip it is necessary to move the slab around enough to get the water to either run off the slab near the center of the pad or actually drip on the pad. These pads are made to be operated with the diamond side down and a center water feed so running them up-side-down creates a water problem at the center of the pad. Ideal would be water fed up through the center but a water swivel will probably cause more wobble. I have thought about trying a water swivel but that will have to wait until I get back to doing rocks instead of carving canes and walking sticks. Adding that much height to the system is going to to take a bit of engineering and metal work to giterdone. You may have noticed that the drill press set-up has the drive trying to turn the pad holder off of the shaft instead of onto the shaft so the fitting has to be pretty tight. Close to impossible to get wrenches on the pad and the nut so I am always working with hand tight. Not a problem with the 5" but would get worse as the pads get bigger and apply more force. Ideal would be to turn the drill press up-side-down but flipping the motor is going to make the armature weight going the wrong way with the support bearings. Jim
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wampidytoo
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Post by wampidytoo on Oct 4, 2016 22:20:52 GMT -5
Where I come from ideas are a dime a dozen but a working model with photos, 300 bucks. Paid in small untraceable bills delivered by a courier of course. lol Jim
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Post by captbob on Oct 4, 2016 22:22:47 GMT -5
A mister is just going to spray on top of the slab. psst... move the slab
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wampidytoo
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Post by wampidytoo on Oct 4, 2016 22:26:06 GMT -5
A mister is just going to spray on top of the slab. psst... move the slab It is quite obvious you have not tried this. Jim
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Post by captbob on Oct 4, 2016 22:36:14 GMT -5
nope, I have not tried this - you are actually correct for a change.
Aren't you holding the slab against a spinning grinding pad? If it's not spinning, you arms are gonna get pretty darn tired in a quickness. Mist the pad where you are not holding the slab and the wetness will rotate under where you are holding the slab.
Again, I haven't tried this, so please explain how this wouldn't work.
ETA: we're not talking about using some little piss ant pad like in the red bowl you have pictured on the previous page that a slab would completely cover.
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wampidytoo
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Post by wampidytoo on Oct 5, 2016 0:11:01 GMT -5
Just no end to your arrogance and intelligence is there bobby.
A mister is going to spread a little bit of water to many places on the pad. If you have not heard of centrifugal force it is the force that throws water to the outside of something spinning. If you spray a little bit of water on the center of the pad it moves very quickly toward the outer edge and the center will become dry or close to dry and heat will be generated which will speed up the drying process. When you factor in higher speeds of rotation you will have higher speeds toward dryness.
If you have a ten inch disc your slab can not be over about four inches wide without going over the center of the pad. Did you happen to factor in moving the slab so the pad does not cut groves in it. I thought not. Unlike a flat lap you have to be hands on with these pads so that does not happen which means you are sitting there for the duration. If you are using enough water spray to keep the inside of the slab cool you will have so much mist boiling up out of the hole you will be breathing it. I do not have a problem at all with you doing that but I try to shy away from it myself.
Another factor in a mist system you are spraying water at the outside of the pad where it is not needed because there is water moving that way (good ol centrifugal force again) from the center. In a scarce water area it would have to be recycled for sure because of the high usage.
Speaking of piss ant numbers, why don't you tell us how many slabs and how many hours you have racked up on anything even remotely similar to this method.
Don't give a damn if you do not like me but please be civil in the rock section and let me tell the other people on here, that may actually use a system like this, what I have learned from the thousands of hours I have spent sitting at one. Now be a good boy and go buy some polished rocks. Jim
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Post by captbob on Oct 5, 2016 0:29:46 GMT -5
well that's a win! Just how was I not being civil? Still say a constant mist would work. Doesn't matter if your good ol centrifugal force spins the water off, it is being replaced. Reinventing the wheel here sport, not building some retro 1950s machine.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 5, 2016 4:27:36 GMT -5
Jim, I wrestled with dry spots watering 4 inch pads at 3600 RPM. So instead of drip I used a messy 3/8" slow stream. And that stream had to hit the section of the pad that had no rock making contact with the pad. A center feed was not doable(water fed down the shaft centerline using a Johnson type rotary seal). Expensive and high maintenance. That is the water input those pads are designed for at their standard (but fast) operating speeds. SO, I want to get a 12-16 inch pad and use one side for grinding and the other side for water input. Water BETWEEN the slab and the rock. The other side for water input, meaning water added via multiple drip or spray from center to edge of 12-16 inch pad so it does not get 'slung' off at their high speeds. If turning them slow they are easy to keep wet. But the main benefit of these pads is speed translating to fast polish times which introduces rapid water sling off. 1/2 of a 14 inch pad is 6-7 inches of usable grinding area which is enough for most slabs. The other half-dedicated to wetting pad. So if doing 12 inch slab I would want a 24 inch pad. And in all cases would want to rotate the slab about it's approximate center to get a good mix of pad speed which varies greatly from center to edge. Rotating the slab is how Mr Burke polished on his 24 inch floor pads polisher. Not taking sides here. Just moving in what I think is the logical direction from my personal experience. Key words: logic, analytical, physics, past experience, small diamond pads, Walmart 3600 RPM grinders, bathing suit, temperature of rubber pads, water feed Johnson joint- basically a rotating hollow shaft that let water flow thru the hollow shaft. Water hose reels and air line reels use them. As do counter top angle grinders for said diamond pads
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wampidytoo
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Post by wampidytoo on Oct 5, 2016 4:32:59 GMT -5
2012 for the first horizontal machine and and three years before that on a vertical machine (with spray) that even though I had a massive water shield threw water and mist everywhere because I had to use a lot of water.
My piss ant pad in the photo is one inch bigger than the ones in James' photo. The bowl is 18" across making the pad look tiny.
To reinvent the wheel you actually have to come up with the improvement to the wheel. I won't be waiting for that to show up.
You are arguing the point just to be arguing and never plan to put your idea to the test so you can argue forever and always think you are right. No matter how I explain it you are not going to get it either just like a while back you could not grasp why it took more hp to run a tumbler faster.
So, I will give you the last word because this is just wasting my time. Jim
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 5, 2016 5:00:46 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 5, 2016 5:03:38 GMT -5
Smash Mouth version. Let's all go to this bar. Don't think we could not get away with spanking the waitress's asses.
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wampidytoo
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Post by wampidytoo on Oct 5, 2016 5:27:29 GMT -5
Jim, I wrestled watering 4 inch pads at 3600 RPM. So instead of drip I used a messy 3/8" slow stream. And that stream had to hit the section of the pad that had no rock making contact with the pad. A center feed was not doable(water fed down the shaft centerline using a Johnson type rotary seal). Expensive and high maintenance. That is the water input those pads are designed for at their standard (but fast) operating speeds. SO, I want to get a 12-16 inch pad and use one side for grinding and the other side for water input. The other side for water input, meaning water added via multiple drip or spray from center to edge of 12-16 inch pad so it does not get 'slung' off at their high speeds. If turning them slow they are easy to keep wet. But the main benefit of these pads is speed which introduces rapid water sling off. 1/2 of a 14 inch pad is 6-7 inches of usable grinding area which is enough for most slabs. The other half-dedicated to wetting. The difference between a 3/8" slow stream and misting is about a gallon a minute and nothing within 20' dry. Never be able to run something like this indoors unless you set it up in a glass beader so up north you could run five months of the year. At those speeds you are going to have to have a heavy concentration of water at the center no matter what because one or two seconds and you are going to be burning the surface of the pad. To keep the pad from wearing uneven, especially at the coarser grits you will have to work as much as possible across center and over the edge and even then the disc is going to cup between center and edge. I have tried everything to prevent this with no solution. Better chance if you are polishing only slabs a little less than the radius of the pad but anything smaller is going to wear the pad in that area. I have a feeling that you will need water input at the leading edge of the slab. I have never had a problem with water at the outside edge of the disc if I got enough water at the center. You are charting new territory here and if you are going to use misters I would suggest setting them up shoulder to shoulder from the center out about half way then wider out to the edge. Flipping this kind of tool up-side-down can cause many different results and the wind created by a large disc that size, going at that speed, is going to be difficult to overcome. A smooth saw blade traveling at 3600 rpm causes enough wind to blow a hard stream of water away before it even hits the blade. I will be watching for YOUR discussion on this topic because I would like to move up to bigger discs now that they have become available to the lapidarist. Jim
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 5, 2016 6:10:21 GMT -5
Jim, I wrestled watering 4 inch pads at 3600 RPM. So instead of drip I used a messy 3/8" slow stream. And that stream had to hit the section of the pad that had no rock making contact with the pad. A center feed was not doable(water fed down the shaft centerline using a Johnson type rotary seal). Expensive and high maintenance. That is the water input those pads are designed for at their standard (but fast) operating speeds. SO, I want to get a 12-16 inch pad and use one side for grinding and the other side for water input. The other side for water input, meaning water added via multiple drip or spray from center to edge of 12-16 inch pad so it does not get 'slung' off at their high speeds. If turning them slow they are easy to keep wet. But the main benefit of these pads is speed which introduces rapid water sling off. 1/2 of a 14 inch pad is 6-7 inches of usable grinding area which is enough for most slabs. The other half-dedicated to wetting. The difference between a 3/8" slow stream and misting is about a gallon a minute and nothing within 20' dry. Never be able to run something like this indoors unless you set it up in a glass beader so up north you could run five months of the year. At those speeds you are going to have to have a heavy concentration of water at the center no matter what because one or two seconds and you are going to be burning the surface of the pad. To keep the pad from wearing uneven, especially at the coarser grits you will have to work as much as possible across center and over the edge and even then the disc is going to cup between center and edge. I have tried everything to prevent this with no solution. Better chance if you are polishing only slabs a little less than the radius of the pad but anything smaller is going to wear the pad in that area. I have a feeling that you will need water input at the leading edge of the slab. I have never had a problem with water at the outside edge of the disc if I got enough water at the center. You are charting new territory here and if you are going to use misters I would suggest setting them up shoulder to shoulder from the center out about half way then wider out to the edge. Flipping this kind of tool up-side-down can cause many different results and the wind created by a large disc that size, going at that speed, is going to be difficult to overcome. A smooth saw blade traveling at 3600 rpm causes enough wind to blow a hard stream of water away before it even hits the blade. I will be watching for YOUR discussion on this topic because I would like to move up to bigger discs now that they have become available to the lapidarist. Jim The water problem with the rubber pads motivated me to consider the very porous diamond buffer pads. They are way cheap and totally new to me. I ordered a 13 inch pad in 200 grit yesterday to have in hand for $23. Big hole in center for floor buffer head. They may be a total flop but I thought it worth trying one. My old lapidary buddy used buff pads on his high speed machine charged with aluminum oxide 80. But a dry grind after the initial wetting to stick the AO. I prefer wet. These diamond buff pads should be easy to keep wet.
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wampidytoo
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Post by wampidytoo on Oct 5, 2016 9:22:37 GMT -5
I was wrong earlier, my bowl is 16" but still within the limits for a 13" pad but would probably be better off with a 9 to 11. I am only running at 1390 rpm because I get too much mist floating up if I set it faster. Starting with a 50 pad still cuts pretty fast but a separate grinder would be nice.
It will be sweet as hell if they work for you. Might be enough to pull me back to polishing rocks, especially slabs which are a pain in the butt with the 5" pads. I use a system of having the water running onto my hand then onto the pad via my fingers. Works but not real well. Jim
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wampidytoo
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Post by wampidytoo on Oct 5, 2016 16:11:55 GMT -5
jamesp The picture of the Johnson joint did not show up earlier so I missed it. Way too elaborate. All that is needed is a drilling swivel that is used on a drill press. One moving part with two O-rings. If I go to the expense of larger discs I will probably give the swivel a shot. I would be able to do an eight inch slab with an eight or nine inch disc with 100 percent of the water going to the side and none going up. I have two higher speeds on my drill press so maybe I can bump my speed up also. If I polish only slabs that are cut on my saw I can probably start at 200 or 400 grit. I have a very large pile of slabs that I want to polish so I can use them on a couple of art projects I have in mind. Sitting here thinking about it, if I use a center feed water system I would be able to polish 5 and 6 inch slabs with my five inch pads quite easily. My grinder base has 5/8" standard thread shaft so it would be a common connection. I am living in a real city now so I can probably buy locally too. Just need to measure how much more usable space there is on the drill press. If there are no backer pads available for the 13" disc you can add a plate to a smaller backer then put industrial strength velcro on the face of it. I have used 1/4" plywood but it is not something to use for the long haul unless it is coated real good with a marine sealer. The pad needs to be pulled off when you are finished using it because somehow the two velcro get stuck harder over time and it will pull the sticky side off instead of separating. A phanonamon I have not figured out yet. Jim
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Post by captbob on Oct 6, 2016 8:18:19 GMT -5
James, Google "pottery wheel". Images there may turn on a light bulb.
Pottery wheel on steroids! Or meth in some cases...
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 6, 2016 10:34:11 GMT -5
James, Google "pottery wheel". Images there may turn on a light bulb. Pottery wheel on steroids! Or meth in some cases... Never thought about a pottery wheel. You do need speed, say 800-3000 RPM for 12-14 inch pad. For fast cut anyway. I got that 200 grit pad in the mail yesterday. It is totally different from the rubber pads. Stays wet forever. Put a glass slab on it wet and rubbed it. Instant frosted glass. Because it is spongy it cuts more on the edges making a very slight cab effect. May make interesting polished faces with an old TV screen curvature. Pad rated for 10,000 sq ft of concrete. LOTS of slabs.
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