jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 28, 2016 7:22:21 GMT -5
I guess I worked in production for too many years 1dave. Making press felts for paper machines was a process so complicated it would blow your mind. Then they are pushing you to make them faster faster faster. Complication of making them was dwarfed by making them faster lol.
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Post by 1dave on Nov 28, 2016 7:30:18 GMT -5
I guess I worked in production for too many years 1dave. Making press felts for paper machines was a process so complicated it would blow your mind. Then they are pushing you to make them faster faster faster. Complication of making them was dwarfed by making them faster lol. After you answered I edited the above to ask what % slurry do you start with? Best = 60% rocks, X% grit, Y% slurry ?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 28, 2016 7:35:05 GMT -5
I guess I worked in production for too many years 1dave. Making press felts for paper machines was a process so complicated it would blow your mind. Then they are pushing you to make them faster faster faster. Complication of making them was dwarfed by making them faster lol. After you answered I edited the above to ask what % slurry do you start with? Best = 60% rocks, X% grit, Y% slurry ? Never calculated percentages. One cup of clay to 6 pounds rock. Water about one inch below rock line at 60-70% rock fill. 70% rock fill OK at start as they will reduce to 60% fill fairly quick. You sorta have to dial in your own machine with your clay/thickener of choice. Clays not created equal...
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Post by 1dave on Nov 28, 2016 8:25:20 GMT -5
Unscientific 46/70 grit experimentOK, so I've seen all the discussions about grit breaking down really fast in PVC barrels and the magic clay involved. I've always wondered if 7 day clean outs were just a few days of rocks tumbling around with no grinding action. I currently use 1/2 cup of 46/70SiC and 1/2 cup of clay based cat litter (always leads to a nice pancake batter consistency). I fill my 6# Lortone barrels (which are rubber) about 75-80% full. Water just below the top layer of rocks. I always noticed a few bits of grit leftover after 7 days. But I was chatting with Garage Rocker and something he said made me want to do a little testing. I figured I had 4 barrels that were started on Sunday. I could test one today and then each day after. Would there still be grit in my slurry? So I just opened the barrel that has been running for 3 days. Emptied the slurry into a bucket. I don't have any scientific equipment to test leftover grit so I dunked my hand in there and began feeling around. I was shocked to find not much grit was left. I would even say it feels about the same as a barrel running for 7 days (yes, I have a habit of dunking my hand in slurry each week). There was a little bit that settled to the bottom, but I'm guessing it would amount to a 1/4 teaspoon or less. So I'm guessing I'll switch to barrel clean outs every 3 or 4 days. If I can't feel any grit left in the slurry, the grinding action doesn't really exist anymore, right? Answer is yes Dave. No more grinding, just rolling the rocks. 45/70 should be easy to feel and see. Sprinkle some fresh 45/70 on a white napkin to get an idea of what size it is. You can pour the whole batch slurry and rocks into a light colored tub. Wash the barrel out briefly into said tub. Pour fresh water in with rocks and slurry, and mix it around to thin your slurry. Come back 10 minutes later, remove the rocks, pour off most of the liquid, and inspect the bottom of the tray for grit. Grit is a good bit denser than quartz and agate and will head right for the bottom of the tray. You can sprinkle a dash of fresh 45/70 next to the used grit to compare used to fresh. Sounds like you are having efficient grinding. Might think about checking after 2 days. Consider an increase, adding 1/3 a cup 45/70(6 pounds rock) every day for 3 days with no clean outs, then let run for 2-3 days to make sure grit is broken down, and then do a grit separation test. Running with good colloidal clay I can go 6 days adding 1/3 to 1/2 cup grit with no clean outs. May let it run day 7 and day 8 with out adding grit to make sure all grit is done. Then clean out. Trick is to not put too much clay to start with so slurry does not get too thick after 6 days of adding grit. Start with just enough clay to get grit circulating and breaking down. You can always pour some of the slurry off and add water to thin slurry at daily grit additions-as needed. I used calcium carbonate(limestone of some sort from the wild) instead of colloidal clay and it would take grit additions every day for up to 3 days. Before gelling. Then run 2-3 days to make sure breakdown occurs. By doing multiple grit additions WITHOUT clean outs the grit sees a lot more time in the barrel on say 5 grit additions on an 8 day run with out clean outs, Day 2 grit sees 6 days Day 3 grit sees 5 days Day 4 grit sees 4 days Day 5 grit sees 3 days AGAIN, you can always pour some of the slurry off and add water to thin the slurry out if needed say day 3 and day 6 when adding grit. Or as needed. This method puts a lot of time on the grit, condenses coarse grind. Rocks see a lot of time with 45 and 70 grit work horse grit. I have tried clays from all over. They are NOT created equal. Most clay is felspar based. If you live in the east around granite geology you probably have COLLOIDAL FELSPAR BASED CLAY. Look up kaolin, a felspar based clay, it is a very common clay around granite geology. Granite is quartz and felspar. High felspar content(kaolin) is best. The most extreme case: 6 pound barrel 55 RPM A single one pound rock mixed with one inch normal tumbles. One cup clay Half cup coarse grit With this overly aggressive arrangement SiC 30 grit was gone in 6 hours. Well, who can add grit every 6 hours ? And why run it 24 hours if the grit is shot at 6 hours ? So I slowed the machine to 30 RPM for one day grit additions. The biggest pain in the but is the coarse grind, so all the experiments. The vibe does the rest of the tumble to polish in 4-6 days. It is the coarse grind that is the problem. I was getting bored with coarse taking 12 and 14 weeks. Cutting back to 1/3-1/2 cup grit every day is working. Too much grit too fast has a way of messing with the slurry. Density of most rock shavings from quartz rocks is 2.5-2.8. SiC is 3.5 and bigger particles than rock shavings in early grind, so heavy and hard for slurry to lift. Maybe at higher speeds. Main reason for adding a bit smaller doses of grit daily is to maintain bigger grit particles every day without too much grit accumulation. Sometime open your barrel after 6-12 hours and do a separation in a tub. When I dump the entire contents in a tub, I use a water hose with valve set on sharp spray, spray contents while rolling the rocks around with other hand to wash them down well. Till tub is 3/4 full of water. That way all the heavy grit falls to the bottom. Then let tub sit and let gravity pull all the particles settle to bottom-like over night. Then pick rocks out by hand swishing them a bit in the cleaner water at the top to make any grit wash to the bottom. Then pour most of the water off slowly. Then you will find out how much your 45/70 has broken down in just 6-12 hours. You may find that your slurry is working well. So well that your 45/70 is smaller than 220 in say 6 hours. If it is 220 in just 6 hours then you are not doing any grinding for the rest of that day(18 hours). No big deal, but it is nice to know. If you are bored and have the time you may get away with adding small doses every 8 hours. At least you know that your grit is breaking down efficiently. Better to know. A one time test. Cause I am amazed at how short lived any coarse SiC is with half good slurry. I have no easy solution, adding grit so often ain't fun. And it does not hurt anything to let it roll longer if you can't add grit. You can recapture the grit in the bottom of the little tub and put it back in the barrel if it did not break down. Just add a little water and slush it around while pouring contents back in barrel. There is no fine line between 45/70 and 220. 220 will not grind one iota off your rocks. Your 45/70 is shot. And when dumping slurry I often see a lot of 200-300 particles in the slurry. And yes you are throwing away SiC. So what. SiC 200-300 is useless at that point. So why waste electricity rolling it. You can savage it if you want. How much SiC 220 do you need ? Just enough to move on to 500 step. Might as well wait till your rocks are finished coarse shaping and then let the last 45/70 addition run for several days and it will break down to 1000 or smaller with good slurry. That's a fact. The tumbler will scavenge every single bit of that 45/70 and crush it to about nothing. IMO, better than a thorough clean out and doing a short 220 run. You may want to wash your cap off to remove any trapped 45/70 particles on the final 45/70 run about mid way. SiC 30 in clay slurry after one hour. Note particles are spread out evenly. That is target. Same slurry as above, scooped off TOP with hand. SiC particles well mixed and distributed about slurry. See finger tips where slurry is thinning out.
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Post by 1dave on Nov 28, 2016 9:10:28 GMT -5
Hey Jim how much SC 30 do you put in a 12-15 lb barrel? Just a cup. And then another cup 3 days later. And another 3 days later. on and on. Often do not do a clean out. Just pour water in the barrel, shake and pour liquid back out to thin slurry. Or add water and let it roll for a few minutes and then pour liquid out if the slurry is really thick. Let the barrel sit a minute for grit to settle and then pour liquid out. Adding a cup every 3 days because it breaks down every 2-3 days. So the early grit additions get run a long time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 10:16:41 GMT -5
The sticky nature is due to shapes of particles... The sticky nature is due to the electro-static charges of the particles refNo doubt the shape, chemistry and ionic behaviour are all inescapably linked. I hope you guys are signed up for PhD's... Thanks Chas! I was (poorly) referencing the post I made about pH changing shape of the particles from stacked deck to house of cards... Good to know ultimately it's the charges on the clay particles setting the tone.
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Post by 1dave on Nov 28, 2016 11:10:59 GMT -5
Some Tumbling Instructions: Now from jamesp : (correct my guesses) 1. Selecting and shaping rocks - cuts down on tumbling time 2. Loading the tumbler - 60% rocks, 1/2 a cup 45/70 SiC, One cup of clay to 6 pounds rock. Water about one inch below rock line at 60-70% rock fill, adding 1/3 a cup 45/70(6 pounds rock) every day for 3 days with no clean outs, then let run for 2-3 days to make sure grit is broken down, and then do a grit separation test. Running with good colloidal clay I can go 6 days adding 1/3 to 1/2 cup grit with no clean outs. May let it run day 7 and day 8 with out adding grit to make sure all grit is done. Then clean out. Trick is to not put too much clay to start with so slurry does not get too thick after 6 days of adding grit. Start with just enough clay to get grit circulating and breaking down. You can always pour some of the slurry off and add water to thin slurry at daily grit additions-as needed. By doing multiple grit additions WITHOUT clean outs the grit sees a lot more time in the barrel on say 5 grit additions on an 8 day run with out clean outs, Day 2 grit sees 6 days Day 3 grit sees 5 days Day 4 grit sees 4 days Day 5 grit sees 3 days AGAIN, you can always pour some of the slurry off and add water to thin the slurry out if needed say day 3 and day 6 when adding grit. Or as needed. This method puts a lot of time on the grit, condenses coarse grind. Rocks see a lot of time with 45 and 70 grit work horse grit. I have tried clays from all over. They are NOT created equal. Most clay is felspar based. If you live in the east around granite geology you probably have COLLOIDAL FELSPAR BASED CLAY. Look up kaolin, a felspar based clay, it is a very common clay around granite geology. Granite is quartz and felspar. High felspar content(kaolin) is best. The most extreme case: 6 pound barrel 55 RPM A single one pound rock mixed with one inch normal tumbles. One cup clay Half cup coarse grit With this overly aggressive arrangement SiC 30 grit was gone in 6 hours. Well, who can add grit every 6 hours ? And why run it 24 hours if the grit is shot at 6 hours ? So I slowed the machine to 30 RPM for one day grit additions. The biggest pain in the but is the coarse grind, so all the experiments. 3. Finish with vib -The vibe does the rest of the tumble to polish in 4-6 days. It is the coarse grind that is the problem. I was getting bored with coarse taking 12 and 14 weeks.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 28, 2016 11:26:40 GMT -5
Nothing need said...
Where'd you find that article Dave ??
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Post by 1dave on Nov 28, 2016 11:53:03 GMT -5
Nothing need said... Where'd you find that article Dave ?? I collected it from our club news letter from back in the day. NOTE - I'm always editing my posts. see above.
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Post by txrockhunter on Nov 28, 2016 13:31:42 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 28, 2016 13:59:45 GMT -5
Montmorillonite = red clay of specific composition. Note aluminosilicate of sodium. Iron. Color = Brick red (betcha it is due to iron) Covington is in Redland California. They don't hold a candle to Georgia red clay haha. The South will rise again !! Dang Californians are trying to steal our red clay !! Very good txrockhunterIf my neighbors found out they could sell their red clay for $33.75/5 pounds they would puke. Assume Georgia red clay has more than 2% silica. But may have way more colloidal particles due to kaolin.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 14:38:55 GMT -5
Clays come in a few species.
Kaolin Montmorillonite Ilminite (micaceous clay) Chlorite group
Based on my research I think only kaolin and certain forms of montmorillonite will work. I don't believe the others have the electrical properties we desire. I may be proven wrong.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 28, 2016 17:20:08 GMT -5
Clays come in a few species. Kaolin Montmorillonite Ilminite (micaceous clay) Chlorite group Based on my research I think only kaolin and certain forms of montmorillonite will work. I don't believe the others have the electrical properties we desire. I may be proven wrong. Very interesting. I freaked when Jeremy posted a clay sold just for tumbling. From Redlands of all places. Billions of tons of kaolin used for suspicion agents, no problem there. Montmorillonite a new one on me, must research. If able to wade thru the technical jargon, clay complicated. You guys have kaolin too (kitty litter mine).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 18:10:07 GMT -5
I think our kaolin comes from east coast!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 18:54:38 GMT -5
Montmorillonite = red clay of specific composition. Note aluminosilicate of sodium. Iron. Color = Brick red (betcha it is due to iron) Covington is in Redland California. They don't hold a candle to Georgia red clay haha. The South will rise again !! Dang Californians are trying to steal our red clay !! Very good txrockhunterIf my neighbors found out they could sell their red clay for $33.75/5 pounds they would puke. Assume Georgia red clay has more than 2% silica. But may have way more colloidal particles due to kaolin. And considering I use a pound or so per barrel, the maximiser would cost more than most of my stones!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 28, 2016 19:06:31 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 28, 2016 19:17:10 GMT -5
I get a headache looking for a source of Georgia red clay. Tried many times. It is so common.
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Post by 1dave on Nov 28, 2016 19:36:41 GMT -5
I get a headache looking for a source of Georgia red clay. Tried many times. It is so common. Do those roads have on them?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 28, 2016 20:50:34 GMT -5
Providence Canyon Ga
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 28, 2016 20:54:03 GMT -5
Typical clay depth of north Georgia
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