wizzykin
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Member since February 2017
Posts: 22
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Post by wizzykin on Mar 19, 2017 15:44:14 GMT -5
So - I'm on this site that was suggested by multiple posters: therockshed.com/bulkrock.htmlI'm wondering if the Brazilian Agate and/or Prarie Agate from this site are good for starters. It was recommended as a good stone for beginners and we've now finished the second "refill pack" that my son got with his tumbler... So I'm looking into grabbing some bulk rocks of the same type for upcoming batches to see how that works out. It would be our first time tumbling non-refill pack type rocks. I'm also wondering how many loads in a smaller tumbler one could expect from the 2 and 5 pound quantities. This is the tumbler he has, for reference to barrel size: www.discoverwithdrcool.com/pro-series-rock-tumblerI may grab a 2 or 5 lbs batch of each the Brazilian and Prarie if people would suggest it. We'll run them separately just to see. I'll also need to grab some grit. I'm looking at the same site on this page: therockshed.com/grit.htmlI want to grab one of the rotary packs they have, but I don't have experience at all with whether one would be better or not. Any suggestions? They have two and they explain the different in a little link, but not in a way that makes any sense to me. I tried emailing the people on the site, but they haven't gotten back to me. I'd like to add as an additional question - how shiny should these rocks be getting after the final stage? With the refill packs, they look decent, but they're not really shiny. They're smooth and when they're wet some of them look pretty good, but when they dry they don't really have much of a shine. Is it possible I'm adding too many cushioning pellets during the last stage and they're absorbing too much of the polish, is it possible that the polish from the set just isn't the best, is there anything else? The Tiger's Eye gems do look pretty good dry - but the rest just don't have any real shine unless they're wet.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Mar 19, 2017 15:54:10 GMT -5
I never recommend grit packs. Grit packs assume you will be running your tumbler per the instructions rather then how it should be run. The grit pack gives just enough of each grit to get through about a week each. Most of us are tumbling in the first stage for a minimum of 6 weeks and maximum of 16 weeks. No rocks get moved to the second stage until all imperfections have been removed. Those prarie agates look like a good choice. The brazilian agates are great too but they will be "crushed" which means lots of fractures to tumble out. The fractures show in the rock shed photo. when all goes well a rotary tumbled batch will look just like the rocks look when wet. crazy lace agates at 2 o'clock from rockshed. bahia agate at 4 o'clock from the rock shed. as far as grit choices stage 1: 60/90 or 46/70 silicon carbide stage 2: 120/220 silicon carbide stage 3: 500 aluminum oxide stage 4 (optional): 1000 aluminum oxide stage 5: 14,000 aluminum oxide polish what is the actual capacity of that tumbler? I see it comes with 1 pound of rough rock so is that enough to fill it 3/4 of the way up? A tumbler that size one pound of stage one grit may last 8 weeks. Chuck
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wizzykin
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2017
Posts: 22
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Post by wizzykin on Mar 19, 2017 15:59:57 GMT -5
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wizzykin
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2017
Posts: 22
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Post by wizzykin on Mar 19, 2017 16:03:40 GMT -5
Does the first stage really need 6 weeks? It's just for shaping the rocks, correct? Our instructions say to tumble on speed 3 for 5-7 days for the first stage; so that's a pretty huge difference. What should I be looking for in the rocks after the first stage of tumbling? We've been moving them on after they're basically rounded a bit and not looking jagged (which has been about 5-6 days with the two batches).
The grit pack from the site I was looking at has 1 lb of each of the same grit measurements that you suggested. It's just a pack as in it comes with 4 stages of grit and the polish - not like a pack from the refill set - but from that Rockshed Site - they've got a few "packs" for rotary tumblers that match the same numbers you gave.
I think the rocks filled the tumbler maybe between 1/2 and 3/4 full; but after the first and second step I had to add a lot of pellets to get it back up to 3/4 full for the final two stages. Like half of a sandwich ziplock bag worth of pellets for each of those stages. They really got ground down.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Mar 19, 2017 16:04:16 GMT -5
Those actually look pretty well rounded and should have taken a better polish. There are a lot of variables that could be off.
How full was the barrel? how much water was added? how much grit/polish was added? how long did each stage run? how well were the rocks and barrel cleaned in between each stage? how many stages at what grit levels?
Chuck
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Mar 19, 2017 16:04:31 GMT -5
Those actually look pretty well rounded and should have taken a better polish. There are a lot of variables that could be off.
How full was the barrel? how much water was added? how much grit/polish was added? how long did each stage run? how well were the rocks and barrel cleaned in between each stage? how many stages at what grit levels?
Chuck
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Mar 19, 2017 16:08:26 GMT -5
Does the first stage really need 6 weeks? It's just for shaping the rocks, correct? Our instructions say to tumble on speed 3 for 5-7 days for the first stage; so that's a pretty huge difference. What should I be looking for in the rocks after the first stage of tumbling? We've been moving them on after they're basically rounded a bit and not looking jagged (which has been about 5-6 days with the two batches). you will find that almost everyone here that has been at this awhile pays no attention to how many weeks stage one actually is. We tumble stage one as long as it takes. Each week we clean the barrel out and any rocks that look ready for stage 2 get pulled out and saved until there is enough saved up to do a stage 2 batch. Some weeks you may only pull out a couple rocks. So each week you are adding a few more to fill that space. For reference I have 36 pounds in stage one at all times and each week about 3 pounds are ready for stage two. So on average 10 percent. Chuck
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wizzykin
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2017
Posts: 22
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Post by wizzykin on Mar 19, 2017 16:14:51 GMT -5
Those actually look pretty well rounded and should have taken a better polish. There are a lot of variables that could be off. How full was the barrel? how much water was added? how much grit/polish was added? how long did each stage run? how well were the rocks and barrel cleaned in between each stage? how many stages at what grit levels? Chuck I tried to keep it at about 3/4 full. I used pellets for the last two stages. Lots of them. I filled it to just above the rock line, or at least tried to. It was hard to tell with the pellets added in. It was a refill pack - so whatever comes with the pack. We just dumped the little baggy in. First stage was about 7 days (speed 3) - but I almost felt it was too much because some of the rocks got pretty small. Second stage was 7 days (speed 3), stage 3 was 7 days (speed 2), stage 4 was 9 days (speed 1) I scrub the barrel out pretty well with a rough sponge. Hard to tell exactly how clean it's getting, though. I can see why people use different barrels. The grit just comes in 4 packs, I don't know what levels they are, though - just whatever they provided.
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wizzykin
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2017
Posts: 22
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Post by wizzykin on Mar 19, 2017 16:21:45 GMT -5
Does the first stage really need 6 weeks? It's just for shaping the rocks, correct? Our instructions say to tumble on speed 3 for 5-7 days for the first stage; so that's a pretty huge difference. What should I be looking for in the rocks after the first stage of tumbling? We've been moving them on after they're basically rounded a bit and not looking jagged (which has been about 5-6 days with the two batches). you will find that almost everyone here that has been at this awhile pays no attention to how many weeks stage one actually is. We tumble stage one as long as it takes. Each week we clean the barrel out and any rocks that look ready for stage 2 get pulled out and saved until there is enough saved up to do a stage 2 batch. Some weeks you may only pull out a couple rocks. So each week you are adding a few more to fill that space. For reference I have 36 pounds in stage one at all times and each week about 3 pounds are ready for stage two. So on average 10 percent. Chuck I think I'll try something like this. Is stage one just all about shape? If we're happy with the shape we just take it out? And how important is rock toughness in this stage for mixing rocks? If we use this method on a smaller tumbler, do I continue the loads but with rocks of around the same hardness? And if a rock is looking not quite ready after week 1, do you continue it for another full week or do you try to dig it out after another day or two of tumbling? Maybe I'll buy a couple 5 pound bags and run stage 1 with them until we've got a couple good looking loads for stage 2 before we actually move on. We've just been doing stage 1, 2, 3, 4 in order for the full month that the instructions suggest. And thanks for helping out. I'm hoping to get better and better with each load. His birthday party is coming up in 2 weeks - so I wanted to buy some agates and a set of the rotary grit. I want to try to get him a really good result this time. He likes the rocks coming out, but seeing what other people can get out of this makes me want to work to get him some really nice shiny gems; he'll freak out if we can do it.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 19, 2017 16:45:16 GMT -5
To me, the first stage is more about removing holes and cracks. The shaping happens naturally in that process. In other words, I have never had all the holes taken care of and then decided to leave a rock in longer to round off the edges more. Besides just liking perfect rocks, removing all the holes and cracks also removes places for grit to hide. If a piece of coarse grit moves on to the next stage and then comes out of hiding, it can scratch up your rocks. I have sometimes moved on a rock with a hole in it, but I'm very careful to make sure that hole is very, very clean.
I do once a week clean outs. I never open a barrel in the middle of the week because it's difficult to clean the lid and rem of the barrel well enough so they don't leak. It's also hard to check your rocks when they're covered with slurry. I need to rinse everything thoroughly to do a proper inspection. There's no need to check midweek.
You can definitely achieve results like Chuck showed above. Keep reading here and asking lots of questions.
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wizzykin
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2017
Posts: 22
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Post by wizzykin on Mar 19, 2017 18:09:41 GMT -5
Well I'll go for the Prarie Agate and then that set of grit (60-90, 120-220, 500 pre-polish, polish) and we'll make sure to spend good time on the first phase to get the rocks crack and hole free. I more paid attention to the shape and size, not so much the cracks and holes. Several of the rocks do have small pockets in them, and cracks (although, not deep ones) along them.
Can I ask - what am I looking to do in stage 2? Stage 3 is to start polishing and getting them nice looking and 4 is all about the final polish... What am I trying to accomplish in stage 2?
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Mar 19, 2017 18:19:07 GMT -5
Well I'll go for the Prarie Agate and then that set of grit (60-90, 120-220, 500 pre-polish, polish) and we'll make sure to spend good time on the first phase to get the rocks crack and hole free. I more paid attention to the shape and size, not so much the cracks and holes. Several of the rocks do have small pockets in them, and cracks (although, not deep ones) along them. Can I ask - what am I looking to do in stage 2? Stage 3 is to start polishing and getting them nice looking and 4 is all about the final polish... What am I trying to accomplish in stage 2? If the rocks are truly ready to move on to stage 2 with no cracks and crevices left then stage 2,3 and 4 all go much better. Stage 2 and 3 for one week each and stage 4 (polish) one to two weeks depending how patient you can be. If your water is to the top of the rocks you might want to cut down on that. Water to the bottom of the top layer of rocks seems to be the going rate for rotary. I still want to know if that barrel is a 1 pound barrel or 1.5 pound capacity barrel. what are the dimensions? diameter and height. That will help us get more specific amounts for the grit usage. Chuck
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 19, 2017 18:21:57 GMT -5
All the stages after the first stage are to remove scratches made by the previous stage. So when the fist stage is done, there should be no cracks or holes, but there will be largish scratches left by the coarse grit. You may not be able to easily see the scratches with your naked eye, but the scratches are what makes the stone appear dull, rather than shiny. In the 120/220 stage, the finer grit will remove the 60/90 scratches and replace them with smaller 120/220 scratches. Actually, after a week, the 120/220 grit may have broken down to a finer grit. Silicon carbide breaks into smaller, but still sharp pieces as it gets crushed between rocks. Those smaller pieces will leave smaller scratches. They you will switch to 500 grit aluminum oxide. It will remove the scratches left by the 120/220. Aluminum oxide will break down differently though. The particles do not break into smaller sharp particles, but rather wear down into more rounded particles. That's what makes them good for polishing. After 500 grit in a vibratory tumbler, my rocks already look really shiny. When I run 500 in a rotary tumbler, the rocks do not look shiny by the end of the week. They still shine up when I polish them though. Polish is just a finer aluminum oxide grit. By the end of the whole process, your rocks should have no scratches left in them and should therefore be nice and shiny.
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Post by aDave on Mar 19, 2017 20:08:16 GMT -5
wizzykin, take heed to what these folks are telling you. I'm not saying you're ignoring them, but bear with my story. Seemingly much like you, I started tumbling rocks 15-20 years ago with my young son. I followed the instructions (one week for all stages), and results weren't too bad. At the end of the day, we got polished rocks, but my eyes have since been opened. Fast forward to now where I've broken out the tumblers for my own satisfaction. With that, things have changed. Do not rely on the "one week" first step grind as you might see in many tumbler instructions. That was fine for me before, but not now. I am turning rocks in the first coarse until there are no pits or crevices whatsoever. This might mean that my rocks will stay in the first grind for weeks, but it is what it is. Every week, I open up the barrel, inspect every rock, and only move those on that are ready for the medium grind. If I pull rocks out, I add additional rough to make the proper level. Don't get locked into the first step being only one week. It's not. In fact, this is probably the most important step at the end of the day. Keep culling and replacing rocks in the first grind until you get enough to move on. The first grind will be one of your most important steps, if not the most important. Take your time with it, and don't worry about rushing it. It's tough to be patient, but that is the key at the end of the day. There are other tips down the road, but don't cut the coarse grind short. Doing so may lead to problems down the road with grit in crevices/cross-contamination down the road. Best regards. Dave
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wizzykin
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Member since February 2017
Posts: 22
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Post by wizzykin on Mar 19, 2017 20:40:56 GMT -5
So less on the water and more thorough on the course grind stage. I really had been looking at the course stage incorrectly as just a shaping stage and really had been disregarding cracks or holes. So I'll make sure I'm thorough about no rocks getting through with any of that stuff. I bought 5 lbs of the Prarie Agate - so we should be able to get a few loads of out that; and we'll move on to Stage 2 once we have a really good looking batch from Stage 1.
I measured the container -> the diameter is around 4 & 3/4 inches, the circumference was around 16 inches, and the depth of the container is about 3 inches to where the lid sits on the little inset lip. The official refills for the machine come with 1 lb of rock, but I did not feel that was adequate to fill the container. We added rocks from around the house to this most recent batch (and started using the pellets in stage 3 and 4) and it did turn out a lot better.
I'm considering getting another container for the final polish stage to eliminate grit contamination. I may also look into a duel tumbler or something if he continues to enjoy the hobby. Perhaps Christmas time.
Does speed make a big difference or could it mess things up? The tumbler comes with 3 speed settings. We run the first two loads on speed 3, then go to speed 2 and 1 for the final two stages. I'm wondering if I should just run them all on a set speed instead or if the speed changes are useful in the various stages; I'm not sure whether the speed thing is a gimmick or not.
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wizzykin
off to a rocking start
Member since February 2017
Posts: 22
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Post by wizzykin on Mar 19, 2017 20:57:25 GMT -5
Also - would you guys suggest totally emptying, cleaning and then restarting stage 1 with the rocks that don't pass the test and with new rocks - or is just taking the rocks out that do pass the test and throwing in some new rocks and a bit of grit enough?
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napoleonrags
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2015
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Post by napoleonrags on Mar 19, 2017 21:01:35 GMT -5
Does speed make a big difference or could it mess things up? The tumbler comes with 3 speed settings. We run the first two loads on speed 3, then go to speed 2 and 1 for the final two stages. I'm wondering if I should just run them all on a set speed instead or if the speed changes are useful in the various stages; I'm not sure whether the speed thing is a gimmick or not. Makes sense. In my experience faster is better in the rough stage.
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napoleonrags
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Member since October 2015
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Post by napoleonrags on Mar 19, 2017 21:08:45 GMT -5
I'm considering getting another container for the final polish stage to eliminate grit contamination. I may also look into a duel tumbler or something if he continues to enjoy the hobby. Perhaps Christmas time. Regardless if your son still likes tumbling, you look like you're well on your way to a full blown addiction. Let us know when you need help. Hello my name is Colin, and I'm a rockaholic. Gather no moss...
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Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 19, 2017 21:16:51 GMT -5
Also - would you guys suggest totally emptying, cleaning and then restarting stage 1 with the rocks that don't pass the test and with new rocks - or is just taking the rocks out that do pass the test and throwing in some new rocks and a bit of grit enough? I do a complete clean out and start fresh. The old grit should be used up, so it won't be very effective. I'm also not sure how you'd check your rocks to,see if they're done if you didn't rinse them off first.
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