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Post by youp50 on Apr 21, 2017 15:33:37 GMT -5
I will be indebted for some clear information on the advantages and disadvantages of segmented vs continuous rim. Sintered, plated, matrixed, polymered and you know what else. Thank you very much.
I am certain that notched rims can make me bleed...
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,504
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Post by Sabre52 on Apr 21, 2017 17:28:05 GMT -5
Used to be Barranca could repair notched rim blades which was a huge advantage when running 20" blades on a big slab saw. If they got dinged or dished, for fifty bucks you'd get them fixed better than new. But now, they don't do that anymore so I buy continuous rim blades because to me they seem to cut better and smoother. I seem to remember the advantage of segmented rim slab saw blades is they run cooler and wetter and often can be run faster and cut pretty aggressively if a little less smoothly. Notched rims like the BD 301 cut really well on hard stuff but are more expansive than the continuous rim BD 303 series and since I like the 303 better and the 301's now can't be repaired, why pay more?....Mel
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mikeinsjc
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2010
Posts: 329
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Post by mikeinsjc on Apr 23, 2017 17:46:54 GMT -5
I see no need to take the arrows when it comes to figuring out what blade to use- use what people who make their living in lapidary use. The blade of choice for most of these people is the MK series. For MK, continuous rim blades are used in smaller size saws, segmented blades in larger saws. This makes sense, as the segmented blades dissipate heat better, therefore are probably more dimensionally stable. A large blade has a high surface speed, and is removing a lot of rock and generating a lot of heat. The 36" blade, for example, is grinding a 0.200" swath through the stone. That's a lot of meat and a lot of heat.
In segmented blades, the segments are laser-welded to the core. The segments have synthetic diamonds bonded to a metal core using metal powders. That process is called sintering.
Older is not always better. These are not your grandfather's blades. The processes and sophisticated manufacturing used to produce these blades didn't exist a generation ago. I have read articles in rock magazines about some codger with a block of wood and a mallet saving a bent blade. Not likely with these blades. You might get it close, but it will never cut like the original. As the guy at MK told me, the core of modern blades are so tough the only way to straighten them is to re-heat treat the piece. That cannot be done without destroying the blade, because the temperature used to heat treat is higher than the temperature used to furnace braze the metal/diamond mix onto the blade segments.
The price of a 303 may be steep, but don't be fooled into thinking a cheap blade is an acceptable alternative. You may get lucky and find a Chinese blade that works ok for you, and depending on what your end product is, maybe so. But if you are cutting medium to large wood and agate slabs with the intent to put a quality polish on them, you will quickly find you get what you pay for in a blade. I have seen cuts from cheap and/or dull blades that render the slab unpolishable.
Dressing a blade, whatever type you end up with, is important. I'm going to step on some toes here. Many think running a blade through this or that is a good way to dress it. Those useless white blocks, grinding wheels, red brick, fire brick, concrete, obsidian, etc. I have a seperate post on this forum detailing what I believe to be the optimal way of dressing a blade. Remember, these aren't your grandfathers blades, and what has traditionally worked may need to be re-examined in light of today's production techniques.
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Post by tims on Apr 25, 2017 1:07:22 GMT -5
Hey Mike, just curious if you could elaborate on "cuts from cheap and/or dull blades that render the slab unpolishable." I'm still using a tile saw and have made some bad cuts, like with multiple blade-thick gouges, or an uneven plateau across half the face. Still, with enough grinding on a lap (or by hand, ouch) they can always be made flat and polishable again. Are you just referring to going straight from cut to polish, or are there ways to completely ruin a slab with a bad cut? Thanks ... maybe you can clue me in to a fatal mistake before i stumble on it myself.
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mikeinsjc
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2010
Posts: 329
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Post by mikeinsjc on Apr 25, 2017 9:41:58 GMT -5
tims, I guess "unpolishable" is a subjective term. A cheap, bent or dull blade can leave marks and grooves in the face of the slab that take too long to economically remove. I cut and polish commercially, so when I have a slab like that I often don't have the time to repair it. A dull lapidary blade behaves just like a dull blade in a Skilsaw- they wander.
I'm sure you have been to rock shows and seen slabs of material in tubs of water. Sometimes you are tempted to buy the slab and finish the work on it. Before you do, run your finger across the face of the rock. If you can feel a groove, you are in for a lot of work- maybe too much work. Often those slabs are sold unfinished for a reason- the grooves are so deep they cannot be saved in any reasonable length of time.
After cutting, I grind off the nub and fill the cracks. Then the slabs go onto a rotating flat lap for an hour or so, which is sufficient for most smaller slabs. Bigger slabs may take more cycles. Then to a bull wheel, then to another rotating lap for polish. The flat laps may not be practical for a hobbyist- they are big and expensive. But they are cool. If I had had my act together, I would have purchased these machines from the beginning of the hobby. They run pretty much unattended, and I can grind or polish 50-75 slabs per day(not including the bull wheel work).
As with any hobby that you end up getting serious about, one blows a lot of time and money along the learning curve, and I certainly have done that.
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Post by johnjsgems on Apr 25, 2017 12:45:23 GMT -5
You didn't say what size blades but "make you bleed" I'm guessing hand trimming. The electroplated blades (thin Chinese, Pro Slicer, etc.) have nickle/diamond mixture electroplated on blade edge (surface applied) so will cut your fingers. Never cut myself with a Chinese crimp rim but guessing they very well could. The old Star Diamond/HP/MK/BD notched rims were pretty safe. The continuous rim 303C and newer 301's very safe as far as personal injury.
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mikeinsjc
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2010
Posts: 329
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Post by mikeinsjc on Apr 25, 2017 15:01:07 GMT -5
I assumed they were referring to the expense!
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Post by youp50 on Apr 25, 2017 20:11:47 GMT -5
I had a proslicer, not very long. A couple of feet of agates and it was done. A 303 C (I think, not sure on the C) down there now. The segmented wheel is on a 4 1/2 angle grinder for real ugly stuff done outside. Under normal operation, it shine my thumbs, slip and it gets a divet or so. It works well for removing dimples in agates.
All blades I have ever seen in the construction industry were segmented. Core drills, masonry saws etc. There are even drivet core drills that require no cooling, flushing water.
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mikeinsjc
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2010
Posts: 329
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Post by mikeinsjc on Apr 25, 2017 22:14:52 GMT -5
Segmented blades clear debris better, and they dissipate heat better. A segmented blade can get hotter than a continuous rim blade, for as the blades heat up a continuous rim blade will be more prone to bind. Hence their prevalence in construction.
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