MichiganRocks
starting to spend too much on rocks
"I wasn't born to follow."
Member since April 2007
Posts: 154
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Post by MichiganRocks on Jan 29, 2006 7:08:15 GMT -5
This is an excerpt from an article in the New York Times today. Will be interesting to see what developes from this.
Ron
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drupe
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2005
Posts: 1,245
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Post by drupe on Jan 29, 2006 8:57:41 GMT -5
I guess there isn't much profit in counterfeiting rocks so most of us are safe.
I certainly hope Tiffany wins and "maybe" Ebay will clean up other areas that have long been neglected because of the profits generated for the Co.
Pete
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,496
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 29, 2006 10:00:25 GMT -5
I sometimes deal in antique blades through E-Bay and have noticed the entire sales catagory is flooded with fake antique pieces especially from China with, in most instances, no mention of the fact that they are fakes or replicas. I might add that they are very good fakes too. I really wish E-Bay would police this sort of thing as it hurts all the legitmate sellers by creating fears of rip offs among buyers. I also suspect that E-Bay is a tremendous area for fencing stolen goods as I've several times been asked for serial numbers on items that I've had up for sale which indicates to me that another collector is trying to track down a similar stolen item. I fear though, that since E-Bay profits mightily through any form of sales, fakes, stolen or otherwise, they'll just continue on as they have been....mel
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jerryb
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2006
Posts: 408
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Post by jerryb on Jan 29, 2006 10:05:55 GMT -5
Drupe,
i think there would be plenty of profit in counterfit rocks, whats lacking is the time and technology to make them. i don't know of anyone who has an "agate machine" just yet
cheers jerry
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textiger
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since May 2005
Posts: 946
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Post by textiger on Jan 29, 2006 10:45:30 GMT -5
It's not just eBay, though. I like poking around in antique shops and have been amazed -- and saddened -- by the amount of stuff being passed off as old or as something it isn't. An example. At virtually any antique shop here in Houston, you can find these small wooden wagons, sometimes referred to as a goat wagon. They are not old, yet the price is always $300 to $450. I have seen hundreds of these things---the saturation alone should drop the price to under $100. But every shop owner I have asked, has insisted theirs is authentic. There's a lot of people selling cypress as teak and tons of "antique" Mexican furniture that is turned out by assembly line. I was in a shop a few years ago, looking at a bookcase cabinet with glass-paned doors. The store touted it as an old Mexican piece. When I looked inside, I could smell some kind of stain or varnish. I found a spot on the top that the stain didn't reach--it was new white pine. When I pulled the piece out to look at the back, it had "India" stamped on the back. It is buyer beward out there, but some sellers need to be slapped around. Both online and in person.
just my two cents.
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Post by Alice on Jan 29, 2006 10:57:07 GMT -5
I guess it's all in what you're looking for.
If you are a true collector, or are buying things as an investment, then I can see how important it is to have the "real" thing.
But if you're buying because you think an item looks nice, and want to display it your home or wear it, who really cares if it's real? What counts is that it looks nice and it makes you happy.
Nobody's gonna come to your house to inspect your items to see if they're real or not (not unless you invite them to do so). Nobody's gonna make you take that ring off your finger to see if is fake. And if they do, who cares. It looks nice, that's all that counts.
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thehawke
freely admits to licking rocks
My Lord and Master
Member since January 2006
Posts: 866
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Post by thehawke on Jan 29, 2006 12:14:53 GMT -5
If sellers are passing a fake off as real, even if I am only buying the item because it looks nice, then they are misrepresentingthe item in order to get more than they should. If I know the item is fike, am I going to spend $600 on it? No. So they say it is real to get the money from me. No matter the reason of buying, sellers like these are ripping everyone off and harming reputable sellers.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,496
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 29, 2006 12:17:54 GMT -5
Alice: From a purely decorative point of view I can see what you're getting at. However, from a financial standpoint, many of the fakes are being sold unethically at non- fake prices and many folks like myself, prefer their decorative items to hold or even appreciate in value ( which is always financially sound advice). Also, with antiques, the history inherant in the piece adds to my appreciation and enjoyment of the piece. I just feel better knowing my dresser's top shelf used to hold plumed hats or my favorite sword has edge nicks that were actually won in combat on the deck of a fighting ship a hundred years ago. Much better to buy something you appreciate for it's beauty and it's history, enjoy it till you tire of having it around, and then sell it for as much or more than you paid for it. You can't do that with a fake or a reproduction. And as far as being happy with a reproduction or a fake, maybe but not as happy as with the real thing. Show me one woman who'd be happy with knowing she had a fake diamond on her finger.... .mel
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thehawke
freely admits to licking rocks
My Lord and Master
Member since January 2006
Posts: 866
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Post by thehawke on Jan 29, 2006 12:31:55 GMT -5
ick I dont like diamonds. Oh sorry.
I hope Tiffany succeeds in holding ebay's feet to the fire. I don't think this would break ebay and maybe they would finally take these fraud claims seriously. I learned waaaay back not to buy my electronics from ebay and frankly, I check with you guys before buying rocks now.
I used to sell on ebay and fraudulent sellers not only harm the buyers, they harm the legitimate sellers because there are whole categories seen as fraud magnets. Nevermind if the seller has a near-perfect track record and has never misrepresented an item. They are harmed because of these bozos trying to make a quick buck off an unsuspecting dupe.
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Post by Alice on Jan 29, 2006 15:41:49 GMT -5
Guess I'm just not the type to spend a lot of money on material stuff. And I'm certainly not the type to go after brand names like Tiffany, Birks, debeers, Chipendale, etc... It's just a name. You can find many things that are the same good quality (if not better quality) out there.
So you get your wife a diamond in a gold setting... do you think she cares if it's a debeers, or birks diamond? Not likely. All she cares about is that you thought of her an bought her a gift, and she'll treasure it forever.
If I happen to see something that's calling out my name, I will buy it... knock off or not. Things are worth only as much as you're willing to pay for it.
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thehawke
freely admits to licking rocks
My Lord and Master
Member since January 2006
Posts: 866
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Post by thehawke on Jan 29, 2006 16:56:32 GMT -5
whether or not the buyer buys name brand or not is not the issue. The issue is what is being percieved? Is the item being recognized as something it clearly is not? If so, it is flat out fraud, no matter the motivation of the buyer.
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earthdog
Cave Dweller
Don't eat yellow snow
Member since June 2006
Posts: 2,731
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Post by earthdog on Jan 29, 2006 22:39:51 GMT -5
I bought a repair manual on a cd from a guy on ebay for a toshiba laptop, in the listing it said my model was in it, plus 1 hundered other models. It took 2 months to get the cd, after the guy said he sent it out twice. My model wasn't on the cd, and on further inspection of the cd, the guy pirated all the manuals from toshiba and a couple other companies then burned the cd's himself. I wrote ebay 3 times since ebay says you cannot sell pirated cd's or software. ebay did nothing, and I was out 20 bucks.
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Post by Alice on Jan 30, 2006 9:19:04 GMT -5
I bought a repair manual on a cd from a guy on ebay for a toshiba laptop, in the listing it said my model was in it, plus 1 hundered other models. It took 2 months to get the cd, after the guy said he sent it out twice. My model wasn't on the cd, and on further inspection of the cd, the guy pirated all the manuals from toshiba and a couple other companies then burned the cd's himself. I wrote ebay 3 times since ebay says you cannot sell pirated cd's or software. ebay did nothing, and I was out 20 bucks. I went through something similar. Only with me I was buying a Star Trek DVD collection as a gift for someone. When I got the "box set", it was a bunch of burned copies which was recorded from illegal satellite. It included commercials, weather warnings, and "blue outs". On the face of the DVD's it was hand written which episodes were on the disc's (Which weren't even burned in order... Disc 1 would have episode 3, 15, 1, 4... in that order!) I opened a square trade file, got back my $10 from Paypal (lost $15 for shipping)... contacted ebay which they in turn contacted the FBI, and they booted the guy off of ebay.
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Post by deb193 on Jan 30, 2006 14:33:56 GMT -5
If the precedents of holding ISP's responsible for pornographic and illegal web pages they are hosting are followed, then ebay will lose these suits. There is also the similar precedent fining ISP/servers that simply provide a meeting place for folks to swap music files online - they were held liable. I ultimately think ebay will be too.
I find it interesting to think about how ebay could improve things without the crippling burden of full policing. I wonder if establishing a verified sellercategory (perhaps where the buyer paid a small transaction fee) where only sellers/merchandise that had been through some sort of verification process could be listed. Possibly there would be regional centers or opportunities at ebay meetings to present credentials and representative items. If complaints accrue, then the verified status could be lost. The listing prices in these categories would of course be higher to help offset seller burdens.
Small sellers could list outside the category and state that it is real, or a replica, or that they have no way of knowing, and the buyer could decide to roll the dice. The price would be cheaper.
At the heart of the problem - aside from fraud being as old as the marketplace (e.g., pig in a poke comes from the practice of swapping a cat for a piglet and handing the closed sack (poke) to an unsuspecting buyer.) is the notion of find stuff to sell on ebay versus sell your stuff on ebay. At one time folks had something to sell and ebay was a good way to have online sales. Or folks wanted to sell something specific such as rocks or their own jewelry or some product they had an interest in. Now there are books that say start an ebay business and we will tell you what kind and where to get stuff to sell. Such sellers have no particular interest or expertise in their items. In other words ebay becomes the end instead of the means.
Other ideas might be to give ebay a financial motive to check out complaints. Some sort of bond might be used for verified sellers, and all or part of the bond could be forfeit if ebay determines intentional fraud. This model is used for bar owners who post a bond and it is forfeit if they are shown to have knowingly accepted fake ID from a minor. To stay in business they need to post another bond, and there is a limit on how many times that can be done as well.
These may not be the ideal solutions, but I think there are a lot of clever and honest people. I think something better can be done than ebay just saying hey we are blameless as they take their huge profit off to the bank. THey just have not done anything so far because they have not been financially motivated to do so.
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Post by akansan on Jan 30, 2006 17:11:07 GMT -5
I've been following this since hearing about the Tiffany's problem.
I think eBay has a good footing to stand on - in all of their agreements and such, they never claim to be anything more than a facilitator. And everyone enters into the contracts knowing it's between themselves and the other party, not themselves and eBay. And if contacted properly, they do police themselves once they are aware of problems. I know in the Tiffany case, they are policing products that bear the name Tiffany, even going so far as to send images and links to people inside Tiffany's prior to allowing the auction to run. I've also been able to get a seller removed for selling pirated movies - but it takes three complaints from three different buyers, not just one.
With the illegal downloads and porn, people are knowingly going after illegal goods...and the ISPs and such can generally monitor traffic and bandwidth to have an idea of what's happening on their servers. In this case, it is no different than going into an antiques store and walking out with a fake that was represented as an original. Buyer Beware.
I guess I would personally not purchase a Tiffany or DeBeers or Chippendale off of eBay. If I was a serious collector, I would want more proof than just some images stuck up on a Web site that the item was real. Ebay might get me started looking into a seller of my particular hobby, but I would want more information than is generally available during the time of the auction.
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drupe
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2005
Posts: 1,245
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Post by drupe on Jan 31, 2006 11:10:10 GMT -5
Yes Ebays ultimate motive is profit. But where do they get the profit from?? Unless the item is purchased the only fees they receive is the listing fee. But when a sale is made they get the listing fee, a final value fee and if the item is paid via Paypal another fee from the seller. The key here is to optimize profits the item must sell. Without a buyer Ebays fees are minimal. For that reason alone you would think that Ebay would go out of its way to have a reputation of protection for the buyer. Well I don't own Ebay so I guess my two cents worth doesn't count. Pete
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chassroc
Cave Dweller
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
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Post by chassroc on Jan 31, 2006 12:50:23 GMT -5
These are very tough issues...Ebay is a haven for: a) Common ordinary folk trying to make a living on the fringe of society, b) Heirs trying to sell off granddads old tumbler and Grandma's old knitted doll clothing. c) The worlds largest flea market d) Rogues who can rip you off anonymously e) all of the above.
I know that when something seems too good to be true, you'd better beware; just as much as I love to get a bargain; just as much as I hate getting ripped off
csroc
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texdanl
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since October 2005
Posts: 122
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Post by texdanl on Feb 1, 2006 23:00:30 GMT -5
If you want a the real thing buy it in person! If Ebey has to try and police every transaction that passes through their portal, we will not be able to afford their price. If they have to charge the seller so that they can support a huge staff to address this, who exactly do you think is going to pay for this in the long run. As in all dealings it is Buyer Beware and don't try and blame the deliverer if what you get isn't what you thought it was. This is one of the reasons things are cheeper on ebey. The risk factor is part of the price which is VERY low for the service that they provide.
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Post by deb193 on Feb 2, 2006 2:31:45 GMT -5
The question is "Is ebay just the deliverer?" I think that is the essence of the suit, and based on music and porn, they are NOT.
IF the alternatives are almost no policing versus "every transaction" & "huge staff", then it might drive prices up too much or ruin the character of ebay. BUT IS THAT TRUE?. Like I said, "clever people" and "thoughtful ways" to tweak the system to prevent most of the fraud might be the answer. Some reasonable steps that don't add too much expense but fix a lot of the issue. But there has to be motivation to try.
Ebay does depend on buyers - but for each one that goes away disgusted, there are 2 more who are willing (greedy?) enough to believe that it can be both too good and true. So ebay does not have to work harder to protect the buyer - not until human nature changes a bit.
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stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,113
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Post by stefan on Feb 15, 2006 13:25:36 GMT -5
I have to jump in as I have a real problem with the ethics of Ebay- They don't claim to be experts and are just providing a market place to bring buyers and sellers together but does not providing the forum also bring with it certain responsibilities (can you imagine Christies offering up the hope diamond for auction and then not taken responsibility when it turns out to be fake?) Yes Ebay is responsibile to protect both buyers and sellers- and they should be policing a lot better- I hope they lose the suit- and get nailed!
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