Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 9, 2017 8:13:57 GMT -5
Hmmm. Now I suppose we need a new name for the Ludlow material. If it ain't zoisite, I suppose it ain't really thulite. Now we need to see what the chemical composition is. To be thulite it should be a calcium aluminum silicate. If epidote, calcium aluminum "iron" silicate. The presence of iron should settle for sure whether on not the material in question is pink epidote or zoisite. The pink color is due to the presence of manganese in the zoisite ( like in rhodonite). Another interesting chemical test would be to see if the pink epidote contains iron above 10% and manganese to lend the pink color. Color in pink epidote may mean it's piemontite too which would be reddish due to manganese in epidote. Both that material and hancockite seem to be pink due to manganese but it is the iron content that really separates them from zoisite. I think reading abut all this stuff has fried my brain. I like "pretty pink and green rock". Much less of a brain strain....Mel
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Post by 1dave on Jun 9, 2017 9:50:46 GMT -5
Lots of the "unknown unknowns" laying about.
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Jun 9, 2017 10:04:36 GMT -5
Wow, I've been reading Sinkankas ( Gemstones of North America) on thulite and what a complicated subject. Since zoisite is in the epidote group, add a little iron to it ( less than 10%) and you have clinozoisite which can be olive green and grades into epidote which is also green. No mention of pink clinozoisite or epidote in Sinkankas at all so pink epidote is kinda weird and neat. Then to top it off, the wyoming "pink jade" which I've always thought was either zoisite and nephrite or zoisite and epidote, is apparently thulite ( pink zosite) and green grossular garnet and maybe even a little rhodonite. All very interesting and confusing. I do know from experience that the pink in thulite is way softer than most of the green areas but can be quite hard if mixed with some quartz. That pic is awesome and, in my opinion, much pinker than either the Wyoming or Porterville material...Mel Sabre52, when I see pink I always think of manganese as the colorant. Your post got me to poking around and there does seem to be a pink clinozoisite called "Clinothulite," which adds another dimension to this puzzle. This is from Wiki: "Clinozoisite is a complex calcium aluminium sorosilicate mineral with formula: Ca2Al3(Si2O7)(SiO4)O(OH). It forms a continuous solid solution series with epidote by substitution of iron(III) in the aluminium (m3 site) and is also called aluminium epidote. "Clinothulite is a manganese bearing variety with a pinkish hue due to substitution of Mn(III) in the aluminium site."
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Jun 9, 2017 10:12:23 GMT -5
I have a pile of slabs so should be able to get some on the road tomorrow. gemfeller since a box is going out I am going to send a couple of other things one of which is what I believe to be WY nephrite. If it would be possible to get a test on a piece of that at the same time I would jump up and down yelling "I love Rich" "but not enough to kiss him". Jim Don't worry about the kiss Jim -- I save my smooches for a certain lady. As for testing the other material, I'll ask but I don't want to impose on my friend's good nature so no guarantees. Please clearly label the specimens you send so I'm sure of the source location.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 11:41:05 GMT -5
Wow, I've been reading Sinkankas ( Gemstones of North America) on thulite and what a complicated subject. Since zoisite is in the epidote group, add a little iron to it ( less than 10%) and you have clinozoisite which can be olive green and grades into epidote which is also green. No mention of pink clinozoisite or epidote in Sinkankas at all so pink epidote is kinda weird and neat. Then to top it off, the wyoming "pink jade" which I've always thought was either zoisite and nephrite or zoisite and epidote, is apparently thulite ( pink zosite) and green grossular garnet and maybe even a little rhodonite. All very interesting and confusing. I do know from experience that the pink in thulite is way softer than most of the green areas but can be quite hard if mixed with some quartz. That pic is awesome and, in my opinion, much pinker than either the Wyoming or Porterville material...Mel Sabre52, when I see pink I always think of manganese as the colorant. Your post got me to poking around and there does seem to be a pink clinozoisite called "Clinothulite," which adds another dimension to this puzzle. This is from Wiki: "Clinozoisite is a complex calcium aluminium sorosilicate mineral with formula: Ca2Al3(Si2O7)(SiO4)O(OH). It forms a continuous solid solution series with epidote by substitution of iron(III) in the aluminium (m3 site) and is also called aluminium epidote. "Clinothulite is a manganese bearing variety with a pinkish hue due to substitution of Mn(III) in the aluminium site." You guys are way out in left field. The curves from the pink matched known epidote curves. It's mainly epidote. And the green matched known diorite curves. It's mainly diorite. Don't forget, we have some actual test results here. Not speculation. Will be interested to see what Raman adds. Colorants? That hillside has tons (really!!) of manganese. So no big deal on that.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 9, 2017 15:57:57 GMT -5
Hey, not a mineral guy but I still enjoy reading about them and scratching my head a lot *L*. This is a really interesting group of minerals....Mel
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wampidytoo
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Post by wampidytoo on Jun 9, 2017 17:15:17 GMT -5
The box is on the way gemfeller. I sent the tracking number in a message.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 8:12:46 GMT -5
More on this from Donald.
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wampidytoo
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Post by wampidytoo on Jun 10, 2017 16:35:21 GMT -5
Do you really expect us to believe anything from Donald. lol Jim
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 17:01:42 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 17:04:59 GMT -5
And on the common "ruby in zoisite" found in lapidary
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 10, 2017 21:47:45 GMT -5
OK then what about Sultans Ruby from India? It has red surrounded by a white border, surrounded by the green. Always wondered what the white was and is the green in that one zoisite?.....Mel
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 2:41:20 GMT -5
OK then what about Sultans Ruby from India? It has red surrounded by a white border, surrounded by the green. Always wondered what the white was and is the green in that one zoisite?.....Mel I'll ask him
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2017 8:49:07 GMT -5
More
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2017 13:18:56 GMT -5
Regarding the ruby material
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 17, 2017 6:00:12 GMT -5
Interesting information, Thanks. Helps a lot to explain why that stuff is such a booger to polish...Mel
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 9:56:19 GMT -5
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 17, 2017 12:49:06 GMT -5
Now I am really getting confused. My mineral book says piemontite is a red epidote varient not red dioptase. No? Interesting that the Tulare "thulite" material is so similar to the Ludlow stuff considering I thought the environment was dissimilar and some of the Tulare Co. material is found associated with nephrite jade deposits near Porterville....Mel
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 13:08:35 GMT -5
Now I am really getting confused. My mineral book says piemontite is a red epidote varient not red dioptase. No? Interesting that the Tulare "thulite" material is so similar to the Ludlow stuff considering I thought the environment was dissimilar and some of the Tulare Co. material is found associated with nephrite jade deposits near Porterville....Mel Did ya read the bit about no NorCal nephrite?
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 17, 2017 18:15:09 GMT -5
OK, not sure if Porterville is considered Northern California but having been to a bunch of nephrite locations and mines there and have seen and cut the jade from the Merced River Gorge, it sure does look like nephrite to me and says it is in all my mineral books. Of course I have no idea if it's been subjected to all them fancy tests by the Calif, Division of Mines. It looks like jade, rings like jade, hard like jade as opposed to serpentine from the same area, and is pretty green. The mines are all called jade mines too *L* for all that's worth.
That brings to mind another question. How does the Jade Cove stuff test? It seems for the most part much less nice than the best Porterville or Mariposa County stuff. I've seen Porterville from the old days that is the prettiest looking nephrite I've ever seen......Mel
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