QuailRiver
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,640
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Post by QuailRiver on Jul 12, 2017 23:45:56 GMT -5
The 1/2 hp motor on my Lortone 18" saw was dying so I started looking around for a replacement. Normally I'm a big proponent of salvaging used motors for lapidary equipment. But since it's starting to get tougher for me to get down on the floor to do maintenance or to replace motors on the bigger saws I decided to look into buying a new one. Found a Dayton (model 20VD08) 1/2 hp Capacitor Start/Capacitor Run motor on sale at Zoro Tools for $169 w/free shipping which was only about thirty dollars more than a new standard split-phase 1/2 hp cost. And since the CS/CR motor's specs showed it only pulls about half the amps as the standard 1/2 hp split-phase I figured it would easily save the cost difference on the power bill.
Received the motor in good shape and very fast delivery (always have gotten good service from Zoro Tools). Installed it on the saw and tested it and everything seemed fine. Later when running just the 18" Lortone alone I noticed a clicking sound after I started the saw. It clicks about every 5-7 seconds until the saw blade starts engaging the stone but once the motor gets under strain it does not click nearly as often but yet still does some randomly. (And yes I've checked the pulleys to make sure that they are tight). I had not noticed the clicking the first couple of times I used the new motor on the saw but I had other saws running at the time too so the sound of those may have drowned out the clicking sound.
So my question is: Is it normal to be able to hear the capacitors on a CS/CR fractional hp motor kick in and off when running and is it normal that they should do this so frequently (5-7 seconds) when not under heavy load?
Larry C.
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Post by coloradocliff on Jul 13, 2017 0:42:39 GMT -5
The 1/2 hp motor on my Lortone 18" saw was dying so I started looking around for a replacement. Normally I'm a big proponent of salvaging used motors for lapidary equipment. But since it's starting to get tougher for me to get down on the floor to do maintenance or to replace motors on the bigger saws I decided to look into buying a new one. Found a Dayton (model 20VD08) 1/2 hp Capacitor Start/Capacitor Run motor on sale at Zoro Tools for $169 w/free shipping which was only about thirty dollars more than a new standard split-phase 1/2 hp cost. And since the CS/CR motor's specs showed it only pulls about half the amps as the standard 1/2 hp split-phase I figured it would easily save the cost difference on the power bill. Received the motor in good shape and very fast delivery (always have gotten good service from Zoro Tools). Installed it on the saw and tested it and everything seemed fine. Later when running just the 18" Lortone alone I noticed a clicking sound after I started the saw. It clicks about every 5-7 seconds until the saw blade starts engaging the stone but once the motor gets under strain it does not click nearly as often but yet still does some randomly. (And yes I've checked the pulleys to make sure that they are tight). I had not noticed the clicking the first couple of times I used the new motor on the saw but I had other saws running at the time too so the sound of those may have drowned out the clicking sound. So my question is: Is it normal to be able to hear the capacitors on a CS/CR fractional hp motor kick in and off when running and is it normal that they should do this so frequently (5-7 seconds) when not under heavy load? Larry C. Not an electrician Larry but own and run many, many capacitor start motor motors in an acre and a half of greenhouse. I never have heard what you are describing but haven't looked for it. Could it be a small chunk out of the belt making the noise? Could it be that you are more attentive to it since it was new. I also Buy from Zoro,. Good stuff, good price. Bought 3 1 hp motors from them in last month and a bunch of relays. Call them up or like I do, email them with your thoughts. If there's a problem with one motor there well could be a problem with lots of other people's motors.Made in China we can bet on. jamesp Jim would have a great take on this. |
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 13, 2017 2:22:00 GMT -5
quartz ? Could it be a malfunctioning centrifugal switch ? I wouldn't think a capacitor start would have a centrifugal switch. Turn the lights off and check for spark/arching- no chance you are hearing arching ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2017 10:33:03 GMT -5
Or a noise in the drive system that is lessened by load.
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Post by johnjsgems on Jul 13, 2017 10:36:37 GMT -5
The capacitors don't turn on/off. The start capacitor is only in circuit when start switch is closed. The run is wired in when motor is running and is the reason the amps are lower. The reason doesn't matter but it throws motor slightly out of phase. I have had two of my PSC 1/3hp (hecho en Mexico) motors make that clicking sound. The first one I did not hear anything when I test ran but customer that bought the saw said it was making the clicking noise on start up and got worse quickly before failing. I started running every motor at least 30 minutes in the shop prior to assembly and have found one more and exchanged it. The start switch is closed to energize the start winding and centrifugal force opens it to disengage the start winding once motor starts. I don't see how the start switch could be the culprit. I would contact the supplier. My motor supplier exchanges without a problem when there is any problem. Much cheaper for me to find problems in my shop rather than shipping motors (and reimbursing return shipping). Motors have degraded greatly from the "good old days". Motor prices have more than doubled since I retired in 2004. Also, most of the better motor brands were bought up by one company and quality not as good. Even Baldor (the last made in USA motor) was bought by a European owned company and Baldor quality also less than before. Diamond Pacific has had many problems with their OEM Baldor motors but find them presale with thorough testing in house.
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QuailRiver
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,640
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Post by QuailRiver on Jul 13, 2017 16:15:18 GMT -5
The capacitors don't turn on/off. The start capacitor is only in circuit when start switch is closed. The run is wired in when motor is running and is the reason the amps are lower. The reason doesn't matter but it throws motor slightly out of phase. I have had two of my PSC 1/3hp (hecho en Mexico) motors make that clicking sound. The first one I did not hear anything when I test ran but customer that bought the saw said it was making the clicking noise on start up and got worse quickly before failing. I started running every motor at least 30 minutes in the shop prior to assembly and have found one more and exchanged it. The start switch is closed to energize the start winding and centrifugal force opens it to disengage the start winding once motor starts. I don't see how the start switch could be the culprit. I would contact the supplier. My motor supplier exchanges without a problem when there is any problem. Much cheaper for me to find problems in my shop rather than shipping motors (and reimbursing return shipping). Motors have degraded greatly from the "good old days". Motor prices have more than doubled since I retired in 2004. Also, most of the better motor brands were bought up by one company and quality not as good. Even Baldor (the last made in USA motor) was bought by a European owned company and Baldor quality also less than before. Diamond Pacific has had many problems with their OEM Baldor motors but find them presale with thorough testing in house. I was afraid it wasn't a normal issue. Looks like maybe I should have stuck with recycling old used 20th century American made motors! Speaking of crappy modern products, we just spent most of today dealing with our 21st century made Refrigerator which went on the blink last night. The fridge we had before this one lasted around thirty years before it gave any trouble. This one only made it twelve and from what I hear the newer ones aren't expect to to last even that long. I sure miss the good ole days! Thank you everyone for the replies! Larry C. |
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Post by MrP on Jul 13, 2017 16:25:36 GMT -5
The capacitors don't turn on/off. The start capacitor is only in circuit when start switch is closed. The run is wired in when motor is running and is the reason the amps are lower. The reason doesn't matter but it throws motor slightly out of phase. I have had two of my PSC 1/3hp (hecho en Mexico) motors make that clicking sound. The first one I did not hear anything when I test ran but customer that bought the saw said it was making the clicking noise on start up and got worse quickly before failing. I started running every motor at least 30 minutes in the shop prior to assembly and have found one more and exchanged it. The start switch is closed to energize the start winding and centrifugal force opens it to disengage the start winding once motor starts. I don't see how the start switch could be the culprit. I would contact the supplier. My motor supplier exchanges without a problem when there is any problem. Much cheaper for me to find problems in my shop rather than shipping motors (and reimbursing return shipping). Motors have degraded greatly from the "good old days". Motor prices have more than doubled since I retired in 2004. Also, most of the better motor brands were bought up by one company and quality not as good. Even Baldor (the last made in USA motor) was bought by a European owned company and Baldor quality also less than before. Diamond Pacific has had many problems with their OEM Baldor motors but find them presale with thorough testing in house. I was afraid it wasn't a normal issue. Looks like maybe I should have stuck with recycling old used 20th century American made motors! Speaking of crappy modern products, we just spent most of today dealing with our 21st century made Refrigerator which went on the blink last night. The fridge we had before this one lasted around thirty years before it gave any trouble. This one only made it twelve and from what I hear the newer ones aren't expect to to last even that long. I sure miss the good ole days! Thank you everyone for the replies! Larry C. But the new refrigerators are so energy efficient that it will pay for it self over time.  ...................................MrP |
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Post by coloradocliff on Jul 13, 2017 19:48:54 GMT -5
The capacitors don't turn on/off. The start capacitor is only in circuit when start switch is closed. The run is wired in when motor is running and is the reason the amps are lower. The reason doesn't matter but it throws motor slightly out of phase. I have had two of my PSC 1/3hp (hecho en Mexico) motors make that clicking sound. The first one I did not hear anything when I test ran but customer that bought the saw said it was making the clicking noise on start up and got worse quickly before failing. I started running every motor at least 30 minutes in the shop prior to assembly and have found one more and exchanged it. The start switch is closed to energize the start winding and centrifugal force opens it to disengage the start winding once motor starts. I don't see how the start switch could be the culprit. I would contact the supplier. My motor supplier exchanges without a problem when there is any problem. Much cheaper for me to find problems in my shop rather than shipping motors (and reimbursing return shipping). Motors have degraded greatly from the "good old days". Motor prices have more than doubled since I retired in 2004. Also, most of the better motor brands were bought up by one company and quality not as good. Even Baldor (the last made in USA motor) was bought by a European owned company and Baldor quality also less than before. Diamond Pacific has had many problems with their OEM Baldor motors but find them presale with thorough testing in house. Perfect and wisely solved the problem. Awesome John.. I loved the ball bearing motors and the shops that used to repair them before they all the builders wanted to run sealed motors with bushings instead of ball bearings so they can sell us another one. Bemoaning the fact that no one make nor repairs anything anymore. We have become a resource wasteful species and a throw away society. Getting closer to have mpre time to break down that arbor you are helping me with John. Thanks for your wise answer.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,600
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Post by jamesp on Jul 14, 2017 5:12:51 GMT -5
The next problem is very few motor shops rebuild fractional horsepower motors. 5 HP and up.
Oops, you guys already discussed that. Well, same here in Atlanta, no one will rebuild.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 16:05:01 GMT -5
The next problem is very few motor shops rebuild fractional horsepower motors. 5 HP and up. Oops, you guys already discussed that. Well, same here in Atlanta, no one will rebuild. I have a guy here will rebuild them. His charge to open the case and have a look is about double the cost of a new one. His time is valuable. Got nothing to do with being wasteful. Has to do with cost of replacement versus value of a man's time and expertise. |
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,600
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Post by jamesp on Jul 16, 2017 16:24:38 GMT -5
The next problem is very few motor shops rebuild fractional horsepower motors. 5 HP and up. Oops, you guys already discussed that. Well, same here in Atlanta, no one will rebuild. I have a guy here will rebuild them. His charge to open the case and have a look is about double the cost of a new one. His time is valuable. Got nothing to do with being wasteful. Has to do with cost of replacement versus value of a man's time and expertise. There was an old school European guy that rebuilt small motors until he sold his shop about 5 years ago. He was the last hoorah here in Atlanta. The Vibrasonic motor had me worried when it started going bad as it is a peculiar motor. Diamond Pacific had replacements but same game, lower quality but was cheaper than the old original motor. |
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QuailRiver
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,640
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Post by QuailRiver on Dec 6, 2017 2:22:41 GMT -5
Just an update on the clicking sound coming form my 18" Lortone. After listening to the saw more I wasn't sure the clicking noise was coming from the new motor after all. So after letting the saw sit idle most of the summer, when the weather cooled down in the fall I finally got around to emptying the oil and cleaning the saw out a few weeks ago so I could give it a thorough inspection while running with the hood up. I determined the loud clicking sound was coming from the vise carriage. So I replaced all of the carriage bearings and rotated the carriage way rods a 1/3 turn in case they were getting worn. But it was still clicking when running. So I started putting my fingers on each bearing and feeling for vibration when I heard the clicks and determined the most vibration was coming from the lower front left bearing area. So I took the bearing mounting bolt off to check and see if it was bent but it looked fine. So next I removed the carriage bearing strap assembly and wa-lah. The bearing strap is bent. A piece of rock must have gotten caught between the lower front left bearing and the carriage way rod and bent the bearing strap. So when the power feed is operating the bearing keeps wanting to track of at an angle and does so until it reaches the furthest extent it can go and then the tension of the bearing strap snaps it back into place making the loud clicking sound I've been hearing. Here is a photo showing the problem.  Larry C. |
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Post by Peruano on Dec 6, 2017 7:09:52 GMT -5
Amazing sleuthing. Congratulations.
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 6, 2017 13:37:02 GMT -5
Another way to check it would have been to remove belt and run just the motor. That usually tells you if noise comes from the motor or from the driven device.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 14:16:24 GMT -5
Awesome update!!
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QuailRiver
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,640
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Post by QuailRiver on Dec 6, 2017 15:07:44 GMT -5
Another way to check it would have been to remove belt and run just the motor. That usually tells you if noise comes from the motor or from the driven device. If you mean the motor belt, due to osteoarthritis and tendonitis it's just getting too tough for me to squat or lay on the floor to adjust the tension bolt on the motor mount plate unless I absolutely have to. And though I skipped mentioning this step in detail in my previous post, I did at one point release the tension on the powerfeed belt (which can be done from a standing position on the 18" Lortone) to determine if it was a motor or arbor bearing problem verses something to do with the powerfeed system. Beyond that I could have just removed the saw blade to enable me to run the saw with the hood up. But the saw was due for a cleaning anyway plus I don't like working on an unclean machine. And even cleaned and with the hood up, with the saw running it was really difficult to determine audibly exactly where the clicks were coming from. Ultimately had to rely on touch to locate by feeling the vibration made when it clicked. It was just one of those weird problems caused by a free floating rock particle that I've never seen happen before and probably never will again. Larry C. |
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...................................MrP 
