nich
off to a rocking start
Member since November 2015
Posts: 17
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Post by nich on Dec 4, 2017 16:56:02 GMT -5
The wood dowel under the springs started moving and the silicone that was holding it down broke away from the board. I need to make sure that it gets put back in the correct place so I don't mess up the machine. Anyone know how to find or what the correct placement of this bar is? Obviously I have a general idea, but I don't know how specific I will need to be. This machine has always been REALLY slow compared to some of the videos I have watched and the videos a couple of you have sent me. But on my last load I was giddy because it was rolling perfect like everyone else's but then when I went out about 20-30 minutes later watch it again it was REALLY REALLY going and I was nervous. So unplugged it emptied the barrels and that is when I noticed the bar had moved and was really effecting the tumbling.
So how specific do I need to be, am I going to mess something up if it is a tiny bit off? What a Bummer, here I thought the dumb thing was just gonna start to tumble like it should and Now i am going to fix the bar and it is going to slow way down again. But as long as I goes safely whatever...
Thanks for the help, AGAIN
nich
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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 4, 2017 22:29:43 GMT -5
Mine has never come loose, so I don’t know how important the placement is. Mine is approximately 1 11/16 inches from the middle of the screw under the motor to the middle of the dowel. It looks like 1 3/4 in the picture, but that was because I was trying to hold my iPad and the ruler at the same time to take a picture. Put your ruler parallel to the edge of the wooden base of the Lot-O as I have it in my picture. I measured from the two on my tape measure just because it was easier. Good luck!
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ataraktos
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 140
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 15, 2020 19:25:31 GMT -5
Mine has never come loose, so I don’t know how important the placement is. Mine is approximately 1 11/16 inches from the middle of the screw under the motor to the middle of the dowel. It looks like 1 3/4 in the picture, but that was because I was trying to hold my iPad and the ruler at the same time to take a picture. Put your ruler parallel to the edge of the wooden base of the Lot-O as I have it in my picture. I measured from the two on my tape measure just because it was easier. Good luck! Old thread, I know but super-helpful to see this picture - thanks Jugglerguy! (I'm searching for that tuning thread, haven't found it but still looking and reading.) My dowel is placed *so much further back* (away from the red frame) than yours, I just can't understand. My measure, mid-dowel, to mid-screw is approx 1 1/8 inches! I wasn't very precise because it was so different, I'll get the husband's caliper things and do a better job. Could something else be different to account for this? Like the length of the spring, the diameter of the dowel? The shape of the dowel? (I've seen people mention flat-sided ones, but mine is round. Yours look round,too and about the same size as mine.) Your lot-o is probably a few years older than mine, I'm just trying to sort out my chipping problems but not ready to touch the stick, yet! Could they have changed motors, even?
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Post by knave on Jul 15, 2020 19:31:12 GMT -5
Hello ataraktos, let’s get some background information... What is the action like now, to make you think it is causing chipping? Are you tumbling problematic material such as Amazonite or Labradorite? Each LOTO gets hand tuned at Belt, inc. and the dowel gets glued in place. At 3k rpm, a small adjustment can make a huge difference. Have you tried sugar or borax to slow the action? What is your fill level, and what % of smalls do you use typically? Thanks. Evan
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Post by aDave on Jul 15, 2020 20:06:20 GMT -5
ataraktos Check out this thread here. There was lots of discussion about dowel placement in this. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/88524/lot-polish-stage-issueknave is right about the "hand tuning" of the machines at the factory, but there's nothing remotely scientific about it. In speaking with the guy who does this at the factory, he just loads up a test barrel, starts up the machine, and when things look good to him when moving the dowel, the dowel is hot-glued into place. That's it. I've never been able to conclusively account for the variations in material speed in the barrel that I've seen in different videos, but I have noted there are significant differences in dowel placement among a number of owners. The one thing you want to be sure of, before trying to move the dowel, is to be sure your weights in the fans are oriented properly. If I recall correctly, documentation that comes with the Lot-O reads something like "the weights should be opposite of each other." Some have interpreted this as one weight being at 12 o'clock and the other at 6 o'clock. That's not correct. The weights on each fan should occupy the same position on the clock (both at 12 o'clock, for example). If your weights are not lined up properly, it can affect how "violent" the vibrations can be. If your weights are not lined up, simply turn the fans on their spindle to adjust. I'd highly recommend you check the weights before playing with the dowel. ETA: If you end up going the route of moving the dowel, do it with the machine running and a barrel loaded up with material. You'll be able to see and hear the action, and it will be much easier to slide the dowel. Once you hit the "sweet spot" that you want, turn off the machine and re-glue with hot glue.
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ataraktos
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 140
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 15, 2020 21:30:04 GMT -5
Hello ataraktos , let’s get some background information... What is the action like now, to make you think it is causing chipping? Are you tumbling problematic material such as Amazonite or Labradorite? Each LOTO gets hand tuned at Belt, inc. and the dowel gets glued in place. At 3k rpm, a small adjustment can make a huge difference. Have you tried sugar or borax to slow the action? What is your fill level, and what % of smalls do you use typically? Thanks. Evan Nothing fancy, pet woods, jaspers, agates, all 7's. Nothing huge that would bash everything up. My motion looks good, comparable to others' videos I've seen online. Fast-ish, maybe? Without any added stuff to slow it down. I have tried both borax and sugar. It can slow the action in the beginning reasonably. Like, still rolling, but slower. But I found borax would bog down unrecover-ably after a bit. Sugar too but can be a little more recoverable but not for long. (Like with ceramics, just a spritz or two of water and finishing stages could go as long as needed. But with up to 30% of my rocks with flaws I wouldn't have taken them out of coarse with.) I had been filling up to about where the barrel starts curving, with ceramics. I've recently started trying aquarium gravel for filler/smalls and leave about 2 inches of space at the top with that. I do the fill with water, drain all the water out technique. Do you do % smalls by volume or weight? I have my current batch separated (the rocks get hand-washed, the gravel gets a rotary wash cycle) - I'll weigh/estimate tomorrow. I feel like it's a generous amount of filler (because I rarely have a ton of rocks done with coarse at the same time) but maybe not?
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Post by Jugglerguy on Jul 15, 2020 22:24:56 GMT -5
The amount of ceramics I use from batch to batch varies a lot. I don’t think your problem is likely from the amount of ceramics you’re using. I have never weighed anything while tumbling, by the way.
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ataraktos
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 140
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 16, 2020 10:47:24 GMT -5
ataraktos Check out this thread here. There was lots of discussion about dowel placement in this. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/88524/lot-polish-stage-issueknave is right about the "hand tuning" of the machines at the factory, but there's nothing remotely scientific about it. In speaking with the guy who does this at the factory, he just loads up a test barrel, starts up the machine, and when things look good to him when moving the dowel, the dowel is hot-glued into place. That's it. I've never been able to conclusively account for the variations in material speed in the barrel that I've seen in different videos, but I have noted there are significant differences in dowel placement among a number of owners. The one thing you want to be sure of, before trying to move the dowel, is to be sure your weights in the fans are oriented properly. If I recall correctly, documentation that comes with the Lot-O reads something like "the weights should be opposite of each other." Some have interpreted this as one weight being at 12 o'clock and the other at 6 o'clock. That's not correct. The weights on each fan should occupy the same position on the clock (both at 12 o'clock, for example). If your weights are not lined up properly, it can affect how "violent" the vibrations can be. If your weights are not lined up, simply turn the fans on their spindle to adjust. I'd highly recommend you check the weights before playing with the dowel. ETA: If you end up going the route of moving the dowel, do it with the machine running and a barrel loaded up with material. You'll be able to see and hear the action, and it will be much easier to slide the dowel. Once you hit the "sweet spot" that you want, turn off the machine and re-glue with hot glue. Thank you so much and for sharing the post. That was quite the post too ... Hooke's law even got a mention! =) I'm going to try to take some pictures and measurements and oh, cloudinary, we'll dance again! My fans are aligned correctly. They might be a smidge off or something because it's not that easy to see them but not like 6oclock and 12oclock. Reading your thread makes me think maybe the action isn't aggressive enough. I assumed because I'm getting little chips it's too aggressive but I also get the bogging down (and maybe the damage occurs then?) after some time, although my motion is good to start. Granted that could be me doing something wrong along the way. I'll try to get some pictures together and ask y'all's opinions before touching the stick! Think I'll order another set of springs too. =)
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ataraktos
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 140
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 16, 2020 10:54:20 GMT -5
The amount of ceramics I use from batch to batch varies a lot. I don’t think your problem is likely from the amount of ceramics you’re using. I have never weighed anything while tumbling, by the way. Thanks. LOL is it possible to use too many filler? I probably lean closer to that, as rocks trickle out of coarse. I'll still get some pictures from my current batch.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Jul 16, 2020 21:22:48 GMT -5
The amount of ceramics I use from batch to batch varies a lot. I don’t think your problem is likely from the amount of ceramics you’re using. I have never weighed anything while tumbling, by the way. Thanks. LOL is it possible to use too many filler? I probably lean closer to that, as rocks trickle out of coarse. I'll still get some pictures from my current batch. My batches have probably varied from 20% ceramics to about 70% ceramics. In a normal batch I shoot for about 30%.
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Post by knave on Jul 16, 2020 21:25:03 GMT -5
40-75%
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on Jul 17, 2020 2:07:44 GMT -5
The red line is the worst setting. It represents the most the most distance travelled(3 units) per vibration.(violent, the vertical line). The green and the blue lines are the best, less reversal distance travelled(.5 to 1 unit) per vibration.(gentle) The motor is going to make the hopper vibrate about 3000 vibrations per minute, that is fixed, can't change that(the horizontal line). The movement of the rocks is going to be fastest at the red line(most distance travelled). The movement of the rocks is going to be slowest at the green and blue lines(least distance travelled). The red line represents maximum acceleration and deceleration(sharp peaks that damage hard rocks/glass). The green and blue line represent the least acceleration and deceleration(blunt peaks that are gentle on rocks). Adjusting the dowel pin for the least action or rock movement to maintain action/movement would be my suggestion. Think about it, do you adjust this machine for a human's opinion or what works best for the rocks ? Unfortunately it almost requires graphical representation to know what the best setting is.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 17, 2020 2:46:35 GMT -5
This is how I tuned my Vibrasonic. Basic. A simple amplitude measurement device - the travel of a wrench. Note counterweight is slid to the left close to the hopper offering least vibration resistance(higher bouncing of wrench): Note counterweight slid to the right away from the hopper offering the most vibration resistance(lower bouncing of wrench): The lower arrangement offered much slower movement/action of the rocks. Way better for pre polish and polish. Requires way less ceramics/pea gravel media. The more mass added to the hopper lowers the amplitude(acceleration/deceleration) in a vibrating system for a constant excitation. That's a fact. Only 25% pea gravel media, the other 75% was target glass
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ataraktos
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 140
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 17, 2020 3:10:39 GMT -5
Replying to knave and Jugglerguy - I weighed my rocks and media earlier. I'm pretty good at eyeballing "is that enough" but not great at *labelling* those estimates. 650 grams of rock, 614 grams of aquarium gravel. So roughly 50%. And previous chipped batches have likely been higher % of media even. There's lots I could be screwing up but I think my natural tendency is to cushion liberally and the chipping has probably reinforced that. To jamesp: I think I get what you're saying, and showing in your graph. At the risk though of sounding really dumb, let me ask you this. My dowel is a fair amount further back/away from the frame than most who have chimed in about moving it. Experienced folks have suggested moving closer to the frame for more aggressive movement and further back for less aggressive movement. My rolling motion seems pretty good to start but lessens over time (after 24 hours at most) in the finishing stages. (I'm not mentioning 120 because there's the complicating slurry build up. And I don't get much chipping in 120. Maybe because I clean out when it bogs down, anywhere after 12 hours.) Could my damage be occurring during this bogging down bit, in the finishing stages? Where rocks are more settled and maybe banging against each other on the same spots? My dowel placement, comparatively, suggests I already have less aggressive motion than some.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 17, 2020 3:29:34 GMT -5
I don't quite understand how moving the dowel on the Lot-O effects it. The Lot-O's spring support system is a bit complicated to me. On the other hand the Vibrasonic is real simple. Easy to add weight to and has another controlled/intended adjustment.
I am not a 'wait for slurry to form' type tumbler person. I always add slurry thickener(always sugar in my vibe) right from the start of ALL steps to avoid any bruises at any point in time. Especially in the pre-polish and polish steps. And even more importantly when running glass.
All I can say is avoid 'Mexican jumping beans' at the top of your tumbler's hopper. Bouncing rocks at the top of the rock stack in a vibe hopper is in most cases causing bruises.
I can show a video of my desired 'action'. I call it 'always bogged down'. It is barely moving because the rocks are stuck together with sticky sugar slurry. And all the settings are about as gentle as possible to get movement.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 17, 2020 3:38:30 GMT -5
Check out the 1st 3 to 4 seconds. This is actually a bit on the wet side and a fast action at start up. By the time the slurry gets thicker say the next day these rocks will be moving twice as slow or slower. Note there is no bouncing of rocks on the top of the pile. There is no way any damage is going to occur to these rocks. Not going to happen.
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ataraktos
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 140
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 17, 2020 13:17:39 GMT -5
Thanks for all the videos jamesp ! Love the action one ... and oh my, yes, I totally freak out when I start my lot-o too - it's a tension between "hurry up and get in there and slow it down!" for the sugar/borax/whatever I'm trying but also trying not to dump it all in, in one spot and clog up the works in two seconds. (I also don't do the wash cycle recommended in the instructions - way too much water and everything just bangs around too much.) I hope I can adjust my bar and get a better action without understanding the spring system! Like - it's a stick and a glob of glue, you know? I'm not sure the manufacturer truly gets it! Or certainly, the case of tuning is "good enough". (Being a computer programmer, I'm a big fan of "black boxes". As long as they work! ;-) I am really liking EricD 's adjustable solution (pictured in this other thread we have going: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/75658/change-lot-speed-help ) I especially like that I can drill a hole and "keep" the original spot (possibly before I even pry up the glue), and more easily experiment with other placements.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 17, 2020 17:10:07 GMT -5
ataraktos I tinkered for years before I could polish glass. I learned a lot. I redid my vibe. I have run over 100 loads of glass thru it totally successfully. All I can say is that when you find your path to a polish stick with it. I deviate from time to time for the sake of experimentation and curiosity. But the base recipe stays etched in the brain.
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ataraktos
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2020
Posts: 140
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 17, 2020 17:19:47 GMT -5
ataraktos I tinkered for years before I could polish glass. I learned a lot. I redid my vibe. I have run over 100 loads of glass thru it totally successfully. All I can say is that when you find your path to a polish stick with it. I deviate from time to time for the sake of experimentation and curiosity. But the base recipe stays etched in the brain. Yes, you can believe if I ever get glass to polish, I'll be sticking with it! (My first rotary batch isn't shining much after 6 days but I'll let it go longer. If it's already been too long, nothing lost but a little more time and electricity!) I do, absolutely, want to work with glass as much as rock ... but I need to figure out my chipping jaspers, first! =) Definitely going to fiddle, carefully, with this tuning bar on the lot-o. We can't co-exist like this, lol.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 18, 2020 4:19:57 GMT -5
I pretty much burned out on making adjustments on the Vibrasonic vibe. Kept bruising rocks and glass. I finally added weight to the hopper because I knew the added weight would numb the harsh shaking(the red line vs the green or blue line). And kicked myself for not thinking about this simple modification years before.
There was an event that opened my eyes to the effect of the added weight by accident. I had bought a load of small almandine garnets. My vibe hopper would hold 14 pounds of agate or jasper, but it held 20 pounds of garnets because garnets are so much denser. I turned on the vibe loaded with garnets and noticed it ran much quieter. Slowed the action. This is when it hit me that the lack of weight may be my issue.
Never tried adding weight to the Lot-O. But you can increase the batch weight by adding ceramics.
Make sure you are filling the hopper to the proper level. If the level is low you can about be guaranteed the rocks will get damaged. Vibes are designed to hold the rated weight of rocks. Ceramics and garnets both weigh about the same. You should have better success with 50 to 60 percent ceramics because of the added weight.
Instead of adding ceramics I simply built a heavy hopper for the Vibrasonic.
Best of luck.
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