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Post by knave on Jul 18, 2020 4:33:43 GMT -5
I’m not an engineer, more of a try and cry type. But seems to me like fixed weight would have even more damping/shock absorbing effect then extra ceramics (loose weight) would. If LOTO bowl weight varies widely this could explain a lot. jamesp
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ataraktos
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 18, 2020 9:22:07 GMT -5
I’m not an engineer, more of a try and cry type. But seems to me like fixed weight would have even more damping/shock absorbing effect then extra ceramics (loose weight) would. If LOTO bowl weight varies widely this could explain a lot. jamespI have a couple of bowls, I'll weigh them. The motor for the lot-o single is the same as the Lot-o double so it could take more weight. Maybe I'll try the bungee cord idea I read here somewhere. Or get some neo magnets and snap on some more weight to the frame? =) I'm not sure though how this would affect my "bogging down after 12 hours" problem. jamesp in that video of your motion I know you said it was a little wet, but it was rolling, circulation was good. Even much slower, if still *rolling* I don't consider that bogged down. When mine really bogs down, it's just kind of vibrating and eventually rocks will come straight up from the bottom. No rolling over at all. Also just by putting more stuff in the curved bowl, stuff can lose enough room to make it around the corner of the bowl curve.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 18, 2020 10:03:49 GMT -5
I’m not an engineer, more of a try and cry type. But seems to me like fixed weight would have even more damping/shock absorbing effect then extra ceramics (loose weight) would. If LOTO bowl weight varies widely this could explain a lot. jamesp I have a couple of bowls, I'll weigh them. The motor for the lot-o single is the same as the Lot-o double so it could take more weight. Maybe I'll try the bungee cord idea I read here somewhere. Or get some neo magnets and snap on some more weight to the frame? =) I'm not sure though how this would affect my "bogging down after 12 hours" problem. jamesp in that video of your motion I know you said it was a little wet, but it was rolling, circulation was good. Even much slower, if still *rolling* I don't consider that bogged down. When mine really bogs down, it's just kind of vibrating and eventually rocks will come straight up from the bottom. No rolling over at all. Also just by putting more stuff in the curved bowl, stuff can lose enough room to make it around the corner of the bowl curve. The part of the Lot-O Twin that allows it to take more weight is the springs. It has twice as many. Think of it like the springs support the weight of the load, with the rod pushing up on the rear springs to pre-tension the front springs upward to a point where they are neutral under a proper load weight. The rear springs, with the help of the rod, hold up the 4.5lb load, and the front springs limit the upward and downward movement of the frame.
Adjusting the placement of the dowel forward applies less upward pressure to the frame, resulting in increased downward pressure on the front springs, and thus more upward motion of the load with each vibration.
Moving the rod backward applies more UPWARD tension to the front springs, supporting the load more with the rear springs and allowing more downward motion with each vibration.
Once you get your front springs to be neutral with a standard load (not pre-loaded upward or downward) you will get equal distance upward and downward vibrations. This is also how the same motor can be used for both machines. All it has to do is provide up and down movement, the springs handle the weight.
If your action is stopping mid-run, you definitely don't need more weight. Most people that use sugar or other things to thicken their slurry DO NOT have any problem with bogging down. They have problems with too aggressive an action, damaging their stones. I think your theory that they are just stopping and hammering one another in the same place is correct. By "bogged" I previously thought you meant it slowed down, not stopped. That's very bad.
I forget if I already asked; do your barrels have the dimple inside the bottom?
You're right. Overloading the barrel is also not the answer.
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ataraktos
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 18, 2020 13:20:15 GMT -5
If you asked about the dimples, EricD, I missed it - yes, I have them. I haven't epoxyed them. Makes perfect sense about the weight being held up by the springs and that's how the double lot-o can have just the one, same, motor. Thanks! I'm hoping a combination of having the bar adjustable and maybe a tab more aggressive will allow it to not bog down with thicker slurry? I really liked borax. Until the next day, LOL. When my motion bogs down, it doesn't seem or sound violent but, yeah, I think maybe the rocks are too settled in with their neighbors and keep bumping the same spots and that ferret out any weak spots for sure.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 18, 2020 13:30:55 GMT -5
If you asked about the dimples, EricD , I missed it - yes, I have them. I haven't epoxyed them. Makes perfect sense about the weight being held up by the springs and that's how the double lot-o can have just the one, same, motor. Thanks! I'm hoping a combination of having the bar adjustable and maybe a tab more aggressive will allow it to not bog down with thicker slurry? I really liked borax. Until the next day, LOL. When my motion bogs down, it doesn't seem or sound violent but, yeah, I think maybe the rocks are too settled in with their neighbors and keep bumping the same spots and that ferret out any weak spots for sure. Smoothing out those dimples makes a world of difference. Doesn't seem really important, but it is. Not that you can't get the machine to work without that being done.
With an adjustable bar you can run your slurry as thick as you like, up to a certain point, at which springs break unless you modified the way they are attached at the frame. That is when you start sliding the bar under the frame, which I doubt you will ever do. I did so you don't have to! lol
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 18, 2020 14:33:56 GMT -5
I’m not an engineer, more of a try and cry type. But seems to me like fixed weight would have even more damping/shock absorbing effect then extra ceramics (loose weight) would. If LOTO bowl weight varies widely this could explain a lot. jamespVibrating systems are pretty complicated Evan. They usually consist of a damper(shock absorber in a car), a spring(the springs in the car), a mass(the car) and an excitation of some frequency(the bumps in the road). analogies to each of those components in an auto suspension would be: stiff or soft shock absorber hard or soft springs the weight of the car and the speed of the car and frequency of bumps in the road Changing the geometry would of course effect the entire vibrating system. The damping or shock absorber on a rock vibe is a bit nebulous to describe, must be the rocks and slurry. A (linear)spring is described by the amount of force it deflects per unit of travel. The weight of the car is about the simplest component. The speed of the car and amount of bumps hit is the other parameter. My approach was a simple matter since the Vibrasonic comes from the factory able to handle hoppers from 8 pounds to 35 pounds. The adjustment for 8 to 35 pound hopper is done by increasing the counterweight offset as the hopper gets bigger/heavier. I simply 1) added more weight to the hopper and 2) dialed the counterweight off set to minimum shaking forces. Adding weight is similar to the ride of a lightly loaded pick up truck with stiff springs that has a hard ride verses same truck loaded at rated carrying capacity that rides soft because the springs are depressed to their designed operating mid point. Apparently I got lucky and ended up with a the springs in a gently compressed position for the given weight. Whatever adjustment is made the target will be to reduce sharp reversals. That is where the damage occurs.
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Post by knave on Jul 18, 2020 14:39:12 GMT -5
Very well explained Jim. I could read that stuff all day. I try to explain stuff simply to my customers and they do appreciate it.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 18, 2020 15:49:56 GMT -5
A vibrating system is certainly designed for a range of weight. agate has a density of 2.6 grams per cubic centimeter glass has a density of 2.4 grams per cubic centimeter garnet has a density of 3.7 grams per cubic centimeter
Just saying that if the Lot-O holds 4 pounds of agate then it hold 3.7/2.6 x 4 = 5.7 pounds of garnets. So there can be a good bit of variation in the weight between different rocks.
ETA Most alumina ceramics have a density of 3.4 to 3.7. They are heavy dense materials. Zirconia ceramics can have densities as high as 6 grams per cubic centimeter. So a 4 pound capacity Lot-o barrel can hold 6/2.6 x 4 = 9 pounds of zirconia ceramics. Guessing that would alter the action of any vibe substantially. Zirconia ceramics can dent thinner metal parts when run in industrial tub vibes. They can be used to 'shot peen' or harden the surface of metal parts. I believe zirconia ceramics are around Mohs 8. Alumina ceramics close to Mohs 9.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 18, 2020 16:04:55 GMT -5
Very well explained Jim. I could read that stuff all day. I try to explain stuff simply to my customers and they do appreciate it. Vibration is a discipline in itself. One of the more complex engineering subjects. Especially when getting into 3 dimensional vibration. A bowl vibe is 3 dimensional, the Vibrasonic is close to being a simpler 2 dimensional system. The overseas group uses large bowl type vibes predominately for finish when tumbling rocks. Hand held vibration analyzers costing less than $200 are available these days. A vibrating system is unfortunately best described in graphical form to interpret what the system is really doing. Peak velocity, acceleration/deceleration, displacement/amplitude and frequency are about all the parameters.
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ataraktos
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 18, 2020 17:55:59 GMT -5
Smoothing out those dimples makes a world of difference. Doesn't seem really important, but it is. Not that you can't get the machine to work without that being done. With an adjustable bar you can run your slurry as thick as you like, up to a certain point, at which springs break unless you modified the way they are attached at the frame. That is when you start sliding the bar under the frame, which I doubt you will ever do. I did so you don't have to! lol
I figured you were gonna say that about the dimples. Sigh. What do you recommend? (I've got gorilla expoy, I think.) I've read some of the posts here about it and some saying it wouldn't stay, etc. Moving the stick sounds easier and less gooey. (Not that it's really either/or but still. =) And yes, I won't put the bar under the frame! Especially if I mess with it, without a back-up set of springs on hand! Been looking through my videos, here's what it looks like with a bowl of ceramics. I think this was the first time I turned it on. photos.app.goo.gl/gdbRekh7uhKVSpxy8Finishing stage with rocks/ceramics: photos.app.goo.gl/AkdUR4UptfEUHraW8Looks like something in 120 with ceramics: photos.app.goo.gl/mCSvZUwoTPnGRXhe8This is the most bogged down I happen to have a video of: photos.app.goo.gl/3PPoPaxdz6MSUXsC8Oh wait, there's also this one (just happens all the rocks are on top here?): photos.app.goo.gl/MXbX4s4g7kKBtghBA
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 18, 2020 20:52:29 GMT -5
Video 4 has wayyyyy too much of what I would say is psyllium and/or sugar, and way too much liquid to thin it out. Not sure why there's foam. Hand soap? This one is really damaging the rocks, like running them in a full barrel of water (and borax).
Video 5 needs water badly.
Other that that it looks normal.
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billdean
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Post by billdean on Jul 18, 2020 21:39:02 GMT -5
Video 4 has wayyyyy too much of what I would say is psyllium and/or sugar, and way too much liquid to thin it out. Not sure why there's foam. Hand soap? This one is really damaging the rocks, like running them in a full barrel of water (and borax). Video 5 needs water badly. Other that that it looks normal. I would not jump to those conclusions myself except for video 5. I have seen many batches in the lot-o start as you show in video 4 which to me is saying more about the maturity of the slurry then it does about to much psyllium or liquid is in the batch. Psyllium takes time too mature. It's not instance. Again…..I like a little foam in my slurry and don't find it damaging at all, and I also like certain kinds of hand soap.
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billdean
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Post by billdean on Jul 18, 2020 23:26:05 GMT -5
In 50 plus years in the workforce, I was always taught to lean more toward operator error, before I would consider a product being defective in need of alteration. For my needs the lot-o has done a great job with no alteration at all. I worked on my slurry, how and when to add my ingredients, in which order, and tried a host of other things but never even consider it as in need of alteration or defective. There is a learning curve to everything. Some get that, some never will.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 19, 2020 5:38:24 GMT -5
What is the function of the two black straps ataraktos ? The Lot-O is designed to be rigidly attached to like 50 pounds of concrete using glue. Most vibration equipment creates insane forces. Some are designed to be self contained like the Vibrasonic. The Lot-o depends on being rigidly bonded to ~50 pounds of concrete to transmit it's vibrational forces in a controlled fashion to the rocks. If it is not anchored well it should beat your rocks to pieces just saying. It may appear to be operating properly but as mentioned before there is damaging vibrations that can not be detected without measuring equipment, the red and blue lines lol -
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Post by HankRocks on Jul 19, 2020 6:59:25 GMT -5
What is the function of the two black straps ataraktos ? The Lot-O is designed to be rigidly attached to like 50 pounds of concrete using glue. Most vibration equipment creates insane forces. Some are designed to be self contained like the Vibrasonic. The Lot-o depends on being rigidly bonded to ~50 pounds of concrete to transmit it's vibrational forces in a controlled fashion to the rocks. If it is not anchored well it should beat your rocks to pieces just saying. It may appear to be operating properly but as mentioned before there is damaging vibrations that can not be detected without measuring equipment, the red and blue lines lol - One picture says a 1000 words! The straps are going to stretch, even if very slightly, and cause excessive and unwanted vibration. I don't own a Loto, but as mentioned above everyone glues theirs to the heavy concrete.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 19, 2020 9:18:41 GMT -5
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ataraktos
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 19, 2020 10:27:06 GMT -5
You think that could be part of the problem? The instructions say to tape it and it actually came with two strips of double-sided tape on the bottom of the base. I figured this would be as secure as the tape but perhaps not? There's no rattling of anything that shares the block (like spray bottle, measuring spoons, etc) while it's running. I try to tighten those straps often and haven't been able to yet. I have wondered if this accounted for difference in my motion versus aDave's even with similar far-back dowel placement. Should I glue and tape it? Or try to get that tape off? Presumably getting the tape off won't be easy. It's basically in a sunroom, I wanted to make sure it didn't get too hot out there/thought I might need to move it.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jul 19, 2020 11:42:03 GMT -5
The factory Lot-O tape or glue between the mating surfaces of concrete and Lot-o base would serve you best ataraktos. They would not have suggested a 50 pound block without a firm connection IMO.
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Post by aDave on Jul 19, 2020 13:29:05 GMT -5
What is the function of the two black straps ataraktos ? Nice pick-up James. I didn't look at the vids. ataraktos , I saw your post following this post by jamesp , and I'm a bit confused. Did you adhere the Lot-O base using the tape AND the straps, or is it just the straps alone? I'm reading it as "straps alone," but later you mentioned "removing the tape." Then again, perhaps that comment was simply related to removing the tape and using glue only. As noted by others, the tape on the bottom of the base should be more than sufficient, provided the surface of the block is properly prepped. It's hard to tell if the red on the block is the original finish or if was painted. It's recommended that latex paint be used to "seal" the mounting surface of the block and then use the double-sided tape to mount the machine. If the tape is simply adhered to an unpainted surface, it won't bond well to the cement...at all.
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ataraktos
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Post by ataraktos on Jul 19, 2020 14:15:49 GMT -5
What is the function of the two black straps ataraktos ? Nice pick-up James. I didn't look at the vids. ataraktos , I saw your post following this post by jamesp , and I'm a bit confused. Did you adhere the Lot-O base using the tape AND the straps, or is it just the straps alone? I'm reading it as "straps alone," but later you mentioned "removing the tape." Then again, perhaps that comment was simply related to removing the tape and using glue only. As noted by others, the tape on the bottom of the base should be more than sufficient, provided the surface of the block is properly prepped. It's hard to tell if the red on the block is the original finish or if was painted. It's recommended that latex paint be used to "seal" the mounting surface of the block and then use the double-sided tape to mount the machine. If the tape is simply adhered to an unpainted surface, it won't bond well to the cement...at all. Yes, I was referring to scraping off the tape, if I was going to glue it. It came with double-sided tape, stuck on the base, with one side of the tape still papered. Seems weird to try to glue over the tape? Currently it has no glue and isn't using the tape. The blocks (paver and two cinder blocks) have been painted with house paint. The blocks were dry when I put them together but have stuck themselves together quite well anyway (kind of defeating my initial purpose of wanting to keep the system able to relocate if needed. At least if I want to not rip up the paint job.) I'm sure the tape would stick to the blocks without any problem.
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