jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 12, 2017 16:26:40 GMT -5
325F in a convection oven is about max. The aluminum foil was just starting to stick to it. A non-convection oven is probably better. convection gets the surface hotter. Never could get it to fold, not enough strength in hands. Went ahead and quenched it out on the deck with half a 5 gallon bucket of water whilst standing on it. Now it can be reheated and bends finished. Need a a slot out on the deck to get leverage, like a metal brake to finish final bends. Takes forever to cool down, but quenches very quickly. Could saw the circle roughly and it would be easier to bend. Or cut pipe in half instead of thirds so you could get the center area flat. ![](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4726/38298845634_f990ff1dd5_b.jpg)
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 12, 2017 16:48:20 GMT -5
Better pipe size chart. sch 17 and sch 11 and sch 9 are the most commonly used. ![](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4515/24151634007_6f5743d1c9_b.jpg)
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Post by youp50 on Dec 12, 2017 22:00:00 GMT -5
The only machines I have experience with are MacElroy. I recall the welding plates needing to be 400 degrees.
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quartz
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Post by quartz on Dec 12, 2017 23:24:38 GMT -5
Glad you recognized you needed to drop that temp some, most plastics start to degrade at about 160F. Looks like the 325 worked well. Sucked in a lot of air when I saw the 375 above. I made a hot box to heat PVC pipe [it has a very low coefficient of expansion] and ran it up to 155, got the stretch I needed. This is a great project to follow, thanks for the complete coverage.
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notjustone
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Post by notjustone on Dec 12, 2017 23:57:30 GMT -5
you cant tell me you don't have 2 chunks of steel and some c clamps!
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notjustone
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Post by notjustone on Dec 13, 2017 1:16:35 GMT -5
325F in a convection oven is about max. The aluminum foil was just starting to stick to it. A non-convection oven is probably better. convection gets the surface hotter. Never could get it to fold, not enough strength in hands. Went ahead and quenched it out on the deck with half a 5 gallon bucket of water whilst standing on it. Now it can be reheated and bends finished. Need a a slot out on the deck to get leverage, like a metal brake to finish final bends. Takes forever to cool down, but quenches very quickly. Could saw the circle roughly and it would be easier to bend. Or cut pipe in half instead of thirds so you could get the center area flat. ![](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4726/38298845634_f990ff1dd5_b.jpg) looks like you got that one about flat enough you could probably cut out a circle and use bar clamps to suck it in tight to the pipe and weld. I would definetly treat it just like a weld in steel and bevel the pipe. tack in lots of spots and lay a root and fill passes.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 13, 2017 3:43:49 GMT -5
you cant tell me you don't have 2 chunks of steel and some c clamps! Just seeing what I could do with my hands for a start. Certain that clamps would have flattened it like a board. Plus knowing that 5/8" wall would be a lot more user friendly than 3/4 or 1". Radical bend going from round to flat. Just saying, I would lean toward thinner sdr 17 pipe. 1" thick would be a wrestling match. And overkill for a tumbler, heavy too. Looking at a reducer for the capped end. A 4 inch length of pipe with a section cut out of it like piston rings on an engine. So that it fits with little to no 'ring gap'. Weld gap. Heat end of pipe to soft(optional) Plastic mallet to hammer/press ring inside of pipe say 2 inches and leave 2 inches sticking out for Fernco to grab. Weld in place. Or do two. One 2" long, press and weld. Then yet a smaller one at 4 inches long for the Fernco. So pipe would be 8 5/8" OD. First ring would be 7 3/8" OD. Fernco ring would be 6 1/8" OD. (Pipe wall is 5/8") Super heavy duty reducer for cheap. Mated material for friendly bond, the pipe itself. I get you about beveling and a root weld. Next step is to get this powerful soldering iron and see how deep and wide of a puddle it will maintain. The holder gets a 1.5 inch cherry red band around it that transmits the heat to the big copper tip. Do a couple of deep welds, then test weld strength. Or do you think I should lay in extra material to a bevel ?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 13, 2017 4:12:15 GMT -5
Glad you recognized you needed to drop that temp some, most plastics start to degrade at about 160F. Looks like the 325 worked well. Sucked in a lot of air when I saw the 375 above. I made a hot box to heat PVC pipe [it has a very low coefficient of expansion] and ran it up to 155, got the stretch I needed. This is a great project to follow, thanks for the complete coverage. HDPE pipe was not a common siting around here until recent years. Now most of the pipeline contractors have a lot of scrap laying around since it got so popular. They seem to dislike disposing of the left overs. I don't think the dump wants it, like tires. Compared to sch 80 PVC it is way cheaper.
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notjustone
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Post by notjustone on Dec 13, 2017 10:14:40 GMT -5
I would not leave any of the smaller pipe sticking inside the end cap you will never be able to dump it out. running a soldering iron around it will not heat deep enough to weld much below the surface. treat it just like you would steel. bevel anywhere you cannot put a weld on both sides.for a tumbler barrel they probably wont need to be beveled all the way to the root 100% penetration welds either. ![](//storage.proboards.com/1258779/thumbnailer/UUBzOXl0IqZjgKl0ARKa.png)
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 13, 2017 10:59:11 GMT -5
I would not leave any of the smaller pipe sticking inside the end cap you will never be able to dump it out. running a soldering iron around it will not heat deep enough to weld much below the surface. treat it just like you would steel. bevel anywhere you cannot put a weld on both sides.for a tumbler barrel they probably wont need to be beveled all the way to the root 100% penetration welds either. View AttachmentDamnit man, you sound like the welding teacher I never had. I do use high pen 6011 rods to dodge bevel work out of laziness. Not gonna happen with the solder iron. Not enough penetration. I'm with you all the way. Just tried welding without a bevel and it just would not go deep. Regardless, a half ass weld on one side only and way beyond my ability to break it with my hands. A 2 sider with filler and it would be impossible to break the weld. Trying a butt weld in the frying pan right now. Got the pan right at a spit sizzle(~212F) letting it heat deep into plastic before cranking heat up for attachment. So far not sticking to (wive's) teflon pan.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 13, 2017 11:38:33 GMT -5
OK, first go at HDPE welding in 20 years. notjustone gave great advise. Bevel and add filler. Only way. The butt weld heated by the frying pan was a joke, dead easy. If you can assemble barrel using frying pan butt welds then go that way. fry pan weld left, one side only solder weld right without bevel and filler ![](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4573/38147798495_6d15413ec0_c.jpg) see bead down at base. Only after it had been sitting there below boiling spit for 5 minutes to deep heat, then cranked heat to melt contact at fast spit sizzle. Maybe 1 to 2 minutes to welding temp. and press together ![](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4690/39033406191_52aa0977b4_c.jpg) back side ![](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4563/27256703799_e21cb95cdc_c.jpg) How strong are they ? I beat the fry pan welded part multiple times till 3 shades of blue with the claw of a 16 ounce hammer. Wow, bad azz weld The one side solder weld broke on the second strike of the hammer. A 2 sider would have been better, Bevel and fill the only way. ![](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4601/38317622064_3e088bee04_c.jpg)
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notjustone
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Post by notjustone on Dec 13, 2017 12:47:31 GMT -5
if you can accomplish the "frying pan" method that would work too but you have to get heat all the way around both mating surfaces evenly and clamp together fast enough to weld. coming up on that heat slowly should allow some of the surface imperfections to flow and seal up. I would think you will have to get the flat end cap pretty flat to assure your getting it up to temp evenly. I would ditch the frying pans and just put 2 chunks of clean steel on the burners. but then again maybe you need the Teflon to keep it from sticking idk. haven't welded a lot of plastic.
if you can perfect the frying pan meathod you can do a whole barrel in 3 easy welds. 1 weld end cap on 2 weld reducer pipe on 3 weld reducer to barrel
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 13, 2017 13:26:52 GMT -5
if you can accomplish the "frying pan" method that would work too but you have to get heat all the way around both mating surfaces evenly and clamp together fast enough to weld. coming up on that heat slowly should allow some of the surface imperfections to flow and seal up. I would think you will have to get the flat end cap pretty flat to assure your getting it up to temp evenly. I would ditch the frying pans and just put 2 chunks of clean steel on the burners. but then again maybe you need the Teflon to keep it from sticking idk. haven't welded a lot of plastic. if you can perfect the frying pan meathod you can do a whole barrel in 3 easy welds. 1 weld end cap on 2 weld reducer pipe on 3 weld reducer to barrel I had to weld tabs and 1.5 inch poly pipe fittings to 60 gallon HDPE drums. (20 years ago). I did it hybrid. I used the hot plate/fry pan on the small part and a Black and Decker hot air gun on the big barrel. The application of the air was not too tricky and got the surface of the drum easily hot enough to accept the part from the frying pan. I would feel comfortable heating the outside edge of the end cap(removed from boiling water) for full butt joint with the hot air gun to mate to pipe-in-frying pan. You could see the plastic go from shiny to matte when the temp was reached with the hot air. You would have to tear the part or the barrel up to remove the parts. The PE released from the teflon fine. I cooked a little chunk first to see if it would release. I do not know if you could melt an end plate in a frying pan though. Like a mold. It may mess up the properties of the HDPE. i.e. casting HDPE ETA Probably best to heat direct to fry pan for the reason of even heat distribution. they most are out of high heat conducting metal like alum
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 14, 2017 5:56:30 GMT -5
Ha, this is way overkill. No need for this SDR 11 size pipe and fittings, SDR 17 is plenty thick enough. BUT, it only weighs 6 pounds. So this stuff is lightweight. I have secured an HDPE fabrication shop to buy SDR 17 pipe end cuts and fittings from. I will be trading this end cap in for SDR 17 pipe and fittings. Check out this SDR 11 6 inch pipe beast. 7" inside diameter. Wall thickness is 13/16". grrrr: ![](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4540/25181239718_51b5390808_z.jpg) The nipple kinda got me excited... ![](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4544/39016844652_18bd7b7980_z.jpg) ![](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4561/24186962377_f74bd1b9ef_c.jpg)
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 14, 2017 6:11:35 GMT -5
It would take 15 minutes to pop these in a frying pan and weld 2 of these together. They are precision square and weld ready. The entry must be figured out on one half first. These heavy SDR 11 fittings are expensive, this one was $73. Two would be $146 for a 2 piece barrel. Guessing two welded together would easily hold 16 to 20 pounds of rock. Anxious to look at both SDR 17 6" and 8" pipe and fittings. Quite a bit cheaper. Probably SDR 17 6" for about 8 to 12 pound barrels. ![](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4561/24186962377_f74bd1b9ef_c.jpg)
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 14, 2017 6:25:26 GMT -5
notjustone youp50Either SDR 11 or SDR 17 is plenty thick enough to thread a 4" threaded fitting for access. I would weld it in, but just pointing it out. You could easily tap a say 1.25 inch hole for an access to drain and add coarse grit and fresh water. Use a 1.25" pipe plug up on the curved end for draining to accurate desired slurry level when barrel is placed with drain at 12 o'clock.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 14, 2017 6:37:00 GMT -5
The only machines I have experience with are MacElroy. I recall the welding plates needing to be 400 degrees. I would say the frying pan was about 400F. Drop of water boiled off in 3 seconds. Water a fine temp gauge. I took the parts out of boiling water just to have them deeply pre-heated. Once placed on the frying pan it took about 5 minutes(if that, maybe 1 minute) to get a weldable melt face. Frying pan was pre heated before pulling parts out of boiling water for fast transition and little heat loss. This HDPE DOES NOT cool down fast. Always safe and a good idea to have parts in boiling water before welding. And a sink full of tap water to cool. Just loose the wife when performing such.
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Post by youp50 on Dec 14, 2017 6:40:31 GMT -5
The frying pan weld would pass any visual inspection. If it was clean you will never break it. Ever. Well done.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Dec 14, 2017 7:24:39 GMT -5
The frying pan weld would pass any visual inspection. If it was clean you will never break it. Ever. Well done. First time ever with such thick plastic. Zero skill level. Pleasure to work with this material. Not bad for a know-it-all-engineer. Thought it was all coming to fruition when I noticed the whole pipe will not fit in the frying pan - duh. ETA You would be surprised how the reversing action of a tumbler will undo glued PVC joints. Learned to deep prime glued connections.
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Post by captbob on Dec 14, 2017 8:37:25 GMT -5
Is using an epoxy or JB Weld kinda product worth considering?
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