Don
Cave Dweller 
He wants you too, Malachi.
Member since December 2009
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Don on Jan 4, 2018 14:11:47 GMT -5
Suppose I have a friend who is prospecting in the desert and find a deposit of gemstone. The land status is open BLM. He mine this stone in large quantity--for argument's sake, say, 500lbs of gem material-- and sells it at Quartzsite, Tucson, and online. He do not file any claims with the BLM. Suppose he have several similar mines throughout the southwest that he actively mines and sells the gem materials from and makes a living off of selling these materials as a business.
Is this considered casual/hobby rockhounding?
Is this stealing?
Is this illegal?
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Post by johnjsgems on Jan 4, 2018 14:34:54 GMT -5
I think you know the answer already.
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Don
Cave Dweller
He wants you too, Malachi.
Member since December 2009
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Don on Jan 4, 2018 14:50:04 GMT -5
I think you know the answer already. I know what my own answers would be, yes. I'm interested to hear what other people think. Perhaps my moral compass is wound too tightly? |
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kevin24018
spending too much on rocks
Member since February 2012
Posts: 284
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Post by kevin24018 on Jan 4, 2018 14:53:02 GMT -5
I think you know the answer already. I know what my own answers would be, yes. I'm interested to hear what other people think. Perhaps my moral compass is wound too tightly? sounds illegal, it's not a hobby if you are selling that much etc but I think the question you want an answer to but aren't asking is would you turn them in, I would not. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 15:46:28 GMT -5
I know what my own answers would be, yes. I'm interested to hear what other people think. Perhaps my moral compass is wound too tightly? sounds illegal, it's not a hobby if you are selling that much etc but I think the question you want an answer to but aren't asking is would you turn them in, I would not. What law is broken? The difference between a hobby and a business to the IRS is the business license. Either way income must be reported. In the hobby side losses cannot be deducted. I'm aware of million dollar "hobby" folks. Taxes properly paid. Kevin, where do you draw the hobby line? |
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Post by adam on Jan 4, 2018 16:26:09 GMT -5
"pish posh in the wash" is what I like to say.
500 lbs of rock is questionable. Quite.
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kevin24018
spending too much on rocks
Member since February 2012
Posts: 284
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Post by kevin24018 on Jan 4, 2018 16:39:57 GMT -5
sounds illegal, it's not a hobby if you are selling that much etc but I think the question you want an answer to but aren't asking is would you turn them in, I would not. What law is broken? The difference between a hobby and a business to the IRS is the business license. Either way income must be reported. In the hobby side losses cannot be deducted. I'm aware of million dollar "hobby" folks. Taxes properly paid. Kevin, where do you draw the hobby line? I was guessing, but I seem to recall either locally or maybe here, places you can collect for 'private' use but you can't sell the stuff you collect and there's some limits, either frequency or weight. I thought that is what he was describing. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 16:41:46 GMT -5
What law is broken? The difference between a hobby and a business to the IRS is the business license. Either way income must be reported. In the hobby side losses cannot be deducted. I'm aware of million dollar "hobby" folks. Taxes properly paid. Kevin, where do you draw the hobby line? I was guessing, but I seem to recall either locally or maybe here, places you can collect for 'private' use but you can't sell the stuff you collect and there's some limits, either frequency or weight. I thought that is what he was describing. Most likely the government would see it as a business if they got involved, hopefully they don't but if they do/did it would be very ugly. Why would it be ugly? Unless you mean tax avoidance, we haven't even determined if a law is broken. |
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Post by MsAli on Jan 4, 2018 16:44:51 GMT -5
I guess maybe the law broken would be collected on BLM land and over 250lbs and selling it??
Rocks, minerals and semiprecious gemstones may be collected on public lands managed by the BLM without charge or permit as long as:
1. The specimens are for personal use and are not collected for commercial purposes or bartered to commercial dealers.
2. You may collect reasonable amounts of specimens. In Arizona, BLM sets the "reasonable" limits for personal use as up to 25 pounds per day, plus one piece, with a total limit of 250 pounds per year. These limits are for mineral specimens, common invertebrate fossils, semiprecious gemstones, other rock, and petrified wood.
3. A group of people does not pool their yearly allotment to collect a piece larger than 250 pounds of either rockhounding specimens or petrified wood.
4. Collection does not occur in developed recreation sites or areas, unless designated as a rockhounding area by BLM.
5. Collection is not prohibited or restricted and posted.
6. Collection, excavation or removal are not aided with motorized or mechanical devices, including heavy equipment or explosives. Metal detectors are acceptable, with the exception of the San Pedro National Conservation Area.
7. No undue or unnecessary degradation of the public lands occurs during the removal of rock, minerals, or gemstones.
8. For pieces of petrified wood heavier than 250 pounds or situation not covered here, please contact your local BLM office.
9. If you wish to obtain more than 250 lbs. of rock in a year, please visit the local BLM office to arrange to purchase it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 16:48:12 GMT -5
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Post by amygdule on Jan 4, 2018 16:57:05 GMT -5
Typically, on BLM land the limit is 25 pounds per day, 250 pounds per year. For personal use without a permit. Hand tools only.
Different locations may have their own rules depending on management.
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Post by captbob on Jan 4, 2018 17:10:01 GMT -5
Perhaps my moral compass is wound too tightly? Perhaps. As long as there are tens of thousands of illegals in this country that I/we/taxpayers have to support, tens of thousands of US citizens filing false disability claims that I/we/taxpayers have to support, tens of thousands falsely receiving food stamps, housing or other welfare program payments, as long as there are tens of thousands ... etc etc and all low numbers I'd probably sat F' the BLM. But, I would cover my tracks. Not bring out over daily limits that I could be caught with. If I were to sell it offsite, good luck proving where the material came from. I'm not condoning stealing the US Constitution and trying to sell it, but a couple/few hundred pounds of rocks... pffft |
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zarguy
fully equipped rock polisher
Cedar City, Utah - rockhound heaven!
Member since December 2005
Posts: 1,791
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Post by zarguy on Jan 4, 2018 17:39:34 GMT -5
Suppose I have a friend who is prospecting in the desert and find a deposit of gemstone. The land status is open BLM. He mine this stone in large quantity--for argument's sake, say, 500lbs of gem material-- and sells it at Quartzsite, Tucson, and online. He do not file any claims with the BLM. Suppose he have several similar mines throughout the southwest that he actively mines and sells the gem materials from and makes a living off of selling these materials as a business. Is this considered casual/hobby rockhounding? Is this stealing? Is this illegal? It's people like that that make it possible for me & others to buy rock that we don't have access to ourselves. Or time & travel expenses. I think the government's grip on the use of land is a bit too tight. Lynn |
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Post by youp50 on Jan 4, 2018 17:48:47 GMT -5
I like ethics questions. What is the root here is stealing OK or not. So we have to define stealing. Then we have to decide a little stealing is okay, as long as it is not from me. A little stealing is very bad if it's from me. So in fact, quantifying good stealing from bad stealing is a very personal decision. Unless one decides that all thievery is bad and we will not take what is not ours. Then if we decide all stealing is bad, what should we do about someone stealing. If someone is sticking a gun to my person and demanding money, I would be pleased to have someone call 911. If I was stealing from the government, I would be better no one would call the law because it's a victimless crime and everyone else does it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 20:18:56 GMT -5
I like ethics questions. What is the root here is stealing OK or not. So we have to define stealing. Then we have to decide a little stealing is okay, as long as it is not from me. A little stealing is very bad if it's from me. So in fact, quantifying good stealing from bad stealing is a very personal decision. Unless one decides that all thievery is bad and we will not take what is not ours. Then if we decide all stealing is bad, what should we do about someone stealing. If someone is sticking a gun to my person and demanding money, I would be pleased to have someone call 911. If I was stealing from the government, I would be better no one would call the law because it's a victimless crime and everyone else does it. So, it's a "Tragedy of the Commons" problem? Yes? If the commons is finite and very limited more protection is needed and if the commons is finite but massive, perhaps looser restrictions are in order? I'm with zarguy. To protect the environment a 250# per year limit is silly. The hand tools only law is good enough. And what if I find a 300# piece? Can I take it? Pet wood says 250# plus one piece. How do I weigh it in the field? Taking more than 250# is a form of civil protest. Do we denigrate these civil protesters? |
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kevin24018
spending too much on rocks
Member since February 2012
Posts: 284
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Post by kevin24018 on Jan 4, 2018 20:23:15 GMT -5
I was guessing, but I seem to recall either locally or maybe here, places you can collect for 'private' use but you can't sell the stuff you collect and there's some limits, either frequency or weight. I thought that is what he was describing. Most likely the government would see it as a business if they got involved, hopefully they don't but if they do/did it would be very ugly. Why would it be ugly? Unless you mean tax avoidance, we haven't even determined if a law is broken. if they looked into, or investigated it anyway I don't think it would turn out well, aka ugly for the person being looked at. I mean I'm not aware of needing to pay taxes for a hobby or occasional sales of something. If it's regular sales it seems it is engaging in business but I don't know a whole lot about that. |
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Post by grumpybill on Jan 4, 2018 20:50:43 GMT -5
Oxymoron. No victim = no crime. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 20:53:12 GMT -5
Why would it be ugly? Unless you mean tax avoidance, we haven't even determined if a law is broken. if they looked into, or investigated it anyway I don't think it would turn out well, aka ugly for the person being looked at. I mean I'm not aware of needing to pay taxes for a hobby or occasional sales of something. If it's regular sales it seems it is engaging in business but I don't know a whole lot about that. They would have to catch him in the field with greater than 25#. Catch him at a show with 500# and the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove illegal source. Rather simple kiss my ass scenario as far as I'm concerned. He could be at the show with stuff from a claim or private property or four years worth. Such a petty crime... They played those games in the reptile biz too. Conviction rate was very low, but since they get paid either way, they kept trying! |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 20:54:42 GMT -5
Oxymoron. No victim = no crime. Yes! Bill! Woot! If they are stealing natural resources then the American public is the victim of a rather minute nano-offense. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 21:34:15 GMT -5
Different areas have different rules, and around here there are limits on FS lands as well as BLM, state and other lands. The people who have been victimized in the past include all of us and future rockhounds - I've seen large amounts of some nice stuff disappear in a matter of weeks, and it wasn't ordinary rockhounds hauling it off. The simple answer to the ethics question is to go to the local BLM, FS or other office and explain what you want. Call ahead to make sure someone is there to talk to in person. There ARE places that are off-limits for various, and perfectly good reasons. However, they generally can and do issue permits if you want a larger amount than the limit, and the permits range from free to very low cost.
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