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Post by gmitch067 on Mar 2, 2018 3:02:52 GMT -5
Everybody “in the know” says to use BORAX in the tumbler for the 600/1000/Polish stages… Even I recommend doing so… BUT for the life of me I can’t remember the “WHY” of it.
It works, but how?
Is it a slurry thickener?
Does it impart a chemical benefit to the polishing process?
Does it lubricate and prevent squeaks?
I do know that plants hate the stuff… it is poisonous. My front lawn has some brown patches that refuse to sprout anything green… even the neighborhood dogs avoid the places. So I now have a designated “NO GROW” zone beside the house that I dispose my tumbling waste on.
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agatemaggot
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2006
Posts: 2,195
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Post by agatemaggot on Mar 2, 2018 5:00:18 GMT -5
I suspect the Borax stops bacterial build up and by doing so, would reduce gas buildup in longer runs ?
I always throw in a good splash of denatured Alcohol to delay the onset of bulging barrel syndrome which signals an oncoming
horrible , nasty, ( MESS ) !
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lookatthat
Cave Dweller
Whatever there is to be found.
Member since May 2017
Posts: 1,360
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Post by lookatthat on Mar 2, 2018 8:53:20 GMT -5
Seems to reduce the hard-water buildup. That's why I use it.
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inbtb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2016
Posts: 351
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Post by inbtb on Mar 2, 2018 9:12:32 GMT -5
I use as a thickener with AO grits and cleaner after last grit cycle.
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Post by aDave on Mar 2, 2018 10:25:52 GMT -5
Everybody “in the know” says to use BORAX in the tumbler for the 600/1000/Polish stages… I guess I'm not "in the know." I run a Borax step (for cleaning/burnish) for 6 hours before and after the polish stage. Some may use it as a thickener of sorts, but since I use plastic pellets in all stages after coarse, there is no need for an additive.
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Post by vegasjames on Mar 2, 2018 10:41:37 GMT -5
Borax is a sodium salt like sodium bicarbonate that has also been used in polishing. It is possible that these salts are dissociating forming a weak sodium hydroxide that can dissolve silica. This could possibly help by doing a very fine etch maybe or softening the surface so the polish can work easier?
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Post by Garage Rocker on Mar 2, 2018 10:46:39 GMT -5
Everybody “in the know” says to use BORAX in the tumbler for the 600/1000/Polish stages… I guess I'm not "in the know." I run a Borax step (for cleaning/burnish) for 6 hours before and after the polish stage. Some may use it as a thickener of sorts, but since I use plastic pellets in all stages after coarse, there is no need for an additive. Those of us running a vibe use Borax as a slurry thickener. I don't think there is a practical application in a rotary tumbler until the burnish stage.
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,709
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Post by Fossilman on Mar 2, 2018 11:11:23 GMT -5
I used it a few times and gave up on it... I use Ivory soap instead..
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Post by HankRocks on Mar 2, 2018 11:11:30 GMT -5
I believe Borax acts like a water softener, making the burnishing step more effective as soft water has reduced surface tension between the rock and the Soap. In theory this should be the same for the Polishing. Not sure it significant but I can use all the help I can get.
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Post by aDave on Mar 2, 2018 11:20:41 GMT -5
Those of us running a vibe use Borax as a slurry thickener. I don't think there is a practical application in a rotary tumbler until the burnish stage. I used to only do a burnish with Borax. However, it seems to help with removing my 500 AO grit residue on some rocks. I used to have to use a toothbrush where grit remained in fractures of some rocks. Now, I'm finding I'm not having to do that at all since running a Borax and plastic pellet step before polish. Maybe it's coincidental, and maybe water alone would accomplish the same in that pre-polish step. Don't know.
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kevin24018
spending too much on rocks
Member since February 2012
Posts: 284
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Post by kevin24018 on Mar 2, 2018 12:14:39 GMT -5
I believe Borax acts like a water softener, making the burnishing step more effective as soft water has reduced surface tension between the rock and the Soap. In theory this should be the same for the Polishing. Not sure it significant but I can use all the help I can get. have you ever tried distilled water to see if that made any kind of difference?
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NRG
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,687
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Post by NRG on Mar 2, 2018 14:19:34 GMT -5
I guess I'm not "in the know." I run a Borax step (for cleaning/burnish) for 6 hours before and after the polish stage. Some may use it as a thickener of sorts, but since I use plastic pellets in all stages after coarse, there is no need for an additive. Those of us running a vibe use Borax as a slurry thickener. I don't think there is a practical application in a rotary tumbler until the burnish stage. Does it actually "thicken"? I never used it because I never thought a borate salt solution would do anything at all. breaks surface tension?
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Post by Garage Rocker on Mar 2, 2018 14:34:35 GMT -5
Those of us running a vibe use Borax as a slurry thickener. I don't think there is a practical application in a rotary tumbler until the burnish stage. Does it actually "thicken"? I never used it because I never thought a borate salt solution would do anything at all. breaks surface tension? We're not talking thicken like the litter in the rotary does, but it does make a milky white slurry that clings to the rocks. Whether it helps carry the grit better than no borax, I guess I couldn't say 'for sure'. It appears to. I have two boxes of the stuff and don't use it for anything else. So, with the results I get with it, I'll keep adding a tablespoon to each stage.
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Post by pauls on Mar 2, 2018 14:59:30 GMT -5
Borax is a sodium salt like sodium bicarbonate that has also been used in polishing. It is possible that these salts are dissociating forming a weak sodium hydroxide that can dissolve silica. This could possibly help by doing a very fine etch maybe or softening the surface so the polish can work easier? I have tumbled using a very strong solution of Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic Soda)It worked, but I wouldn't recommend it, to be strong enough to dissolve rocks one splash on your skin and the skin is gone, just too dangerous. I have tried using borax but gave up because I couldn't notice any difference, I use rainwater in my tumbles though so never have any hard water problems.
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agatemaggot
Cave Dweller
Member since August 2006
Posts: 2,195
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Post by agatemaggot on Mar 2, 2018 16:15:01 GMT -5
Any left over Borax can be added to a load of sweaty work clothes , gives a lot fresher smell !
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Post by vegasjames on Mar 2, 2018 17:18:14 GMT -5
Borax is a sodium salt like sodium bicarbonate that has also been used in polishing. It is possible that these salts are dissociating forming a weak sodium hydroxide that can dissolve silica. This could possibly help by doing a very fine etch maybe or softening the surface so the polish can work easier? I have tumbled using a very strong solution of Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic Soda)It worked, but I wouldn't recommend it, to be strong enough to dissolve rocks one splash on your skin and the skin is gone, just too dangerous. I have tried using borax but gave up because I couldn't notice any difference, I use rainwater in my tumbles though so never have any hard water problems. I agree using actual sodium hydroxide is not a good, nor safe idea. It is very caustic and will chemically burn the skin. But even putting table salt in to water the salt will dissociate forming a sodium ion (Na+) and water dissociates forming a negatively charged hydroxyl (OH-). If these combined to form a very weak sodium hydroxide then it could theoretically eat away at the silica on a microscopic level, or at least again soften the surface to make the grit more effective. Kind of like how silica in glass shower doors can be etched from the water and minerals over time. Concentrated sodium hydroxide would not be required to do this. If the borax was simply working as a water softener then plain old table salt would also work, or water from a reverse osmosis system. Purified waters though go acidic rapidly from the absorption of gasses from the air forming the corresponding acids (carbonic, nitrogen and sulfur acids), which would not have the same effect on the silica as the hydroxides.
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Post by pauls on Mar 2, 2018 23:15:04 GMT -5
Another reason not to use Sodium Hydroxide is that the end result is Sodium Silicate, when you have a slurry made of that it's not a great idea to let it dry out. Sets way harder than concrete.
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Post by vegasjames on Mar 3, 2018 4:51:55 GMT -5
Another reason not to use Sodium Hydroxide is that the end result is Sodium Silicate, when you have a slurry made of that it's not a great idea to let it dry out. Sets way harder than concrete. Sodium silicate ("waterglass") is water soluble. If it does harden you should be able to dissolve it again by adding water and heating it up. But yes, the reaction of hydroxides on silica leads to to the formation of silicates. This is why I think the borax or sodium bicarbonate may be helping. As the salts and water dissociate theoretically the hydroxides would react with the silica in the stones forming a thin layer of sodium silicate, which is softer than the silica of the stone and more soluble. If using pure sodium or potassium hydroxide though this could dissolve a lot of the stone or all of it if enough of the hydroxide is present. To understand this melt some pure sodium hydroxide in a metal can. Now add some glass. The glass will dissolve in the sodium hydroxide forming an impure sodium silicate. I have experimented with the use of weak hydroxides on chalcedony and it seems to work well but I am still doing more experimentation.
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Post by gmitch067 on Mar 3, 2018 7:56:15 GMT -5
Another reason not to use Sodium Hydroxide is that the end result is Sodium Silicate, when you have a slurry made of that it's not a great idea to let it dry out. Sets way harder than concrete. Sodium silicate ("waterglass") is water soluble. If it does harden you should be able to dissolve it again by adding water and heating it up. But yes, the reaction of hydroxides on silica leads to to the formation of silicates. This is why I think the borax or sodium bicarbonate may be helping. As the salts and water dissociate theoretically the hydroxides would react with the silica in the stones forming a thin layer of sodium silicate, which is softer than the silica of the stone and more soluble. If using pure sodium or potassium hydroxide though this could dissolve a lot of the stone or all of it if enough of the hydroxide is present. To understand this melt some pure sodium hydroxide in a metal can. Now add some glass. The glass will dissolve in the sodium hydroxide forming an impure sodium silicate. I have experimented with the use of weak hydroxides on chalcedony and it seems to work well but I am still doing more experimentation. Would the BORAX then increase undercutting (like with Tiger Eye/Tiger Iron material) or promote the orange skin problems with materials like nephrite/Jade?
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Post by vegasjames on Mar 3, 2018 9:20:56 GMT -5
Sodium silicate ("waterglass") is water soluble. If it does harden you should be able to dissolve it again by adding water and heating it up. But yes, the reaction of hydroxides on silica leads to to the formation of silicates. This is why I think the borax or sodium bicarbonate may be helping. As the salts and water dissociate theoretically the hydroxides would react with the silica in the stones forming a thin layer of sodium silicate, which is softer than the silica of the stone and more soluble. If using pure sodium or potassium hydroxide though this could dissolve a lot of the stone or all of it if enough of the hydroxide is present. To understand this melt some pure sodium hydroxide in a metal can. Now add some glass. The glass will dissolve in the sodium hydroxide forming an impure sodium silicate. I have experimented with the use of weak hydroxides on chalcedony and it seems to work well but I am still doing more experimentation. Would the BORAX then increase undercutting (like with Tiger Eye/Tiger Iron material) or promote the orange skin problems with materials like nephrite/Jade? I doubt it would be an issue since if what I was thinking is correct we are only talking about micron effects on the surface, not deep penetration affecting the whole stone. And not sure the asbestos fibers in the stones would be affected either since they are more complex silicates. For example the actinolite in the jade.
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