Tousled Owl
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Member since August 2011
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Post by Tousled Owl on Aug 24, 2018 17:38:35 GMT -5
This will probably qualify as the dumb question of the day, but rather than going through some trial and error that might result in bodily harm or (worse) saw or motor harm, I thought I would ask. Situation: HP 18" saw, replacing motor due to constant tripping of thermal protection breaker on original (after eliminating less expensive/less complex causes) New motor: Leeson TEFC 3/4 HP model # 110087. Picture here: www.witmermotorservice.com/11008700-34HP-Leeson-Farm-Duty-Electric-Motor/item/110087.00/Note the wiring diagram on the third picture down for reference. I am setting this up for low voltage use (110 VAC). I've got the new motor wired up directly to a power cord per the nameplate to check to make sure I've got the rotation correct (I do) and it runs fine. The On/Off pushbutton switch on the front of the saw has 2 solid copper wires through a piece of armored conduit back to the motor mounting area. White and Black. I think this makes it a single-pole single-throw switch (correct me if I'm wrong) On the original motor (GE), they were terminated to the terminal block inside the motor (White) or tied with a wire nut to the incoming line (Black) I get it that the switch black wire should break the incoming power (Black - This is represented by L1 in the nameplate diagram). So it seems I should connect the incoming power (black) to the solid black wire to the switch with a good weather-proof wire nut or similar. That brings the line power input to one side of the switch. Sorry for the long preamble. What then connects to the P1 lead of the motor (where I have the incoming line L1 connected now)? The white solid wire out of the switch? This seems like how/where you would make/break the power flow. When the switch is OFF, power is interrupted at the switch. When it is ON, it flows through the switch and out through the white solid wire to become L1 (relative to the motor nameplate) and provides power to P1, completing the power input. I would leave the L2 line neutral connected as is, to T2-T4-T5. Correct? Thanks much, Jack
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caveman79
off to a rocking start
Member since July 2018
Posts: 16
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Post by caveman79 on Aug 24, 2018 21:48:31 GMT -5
Connect your black line (hot) coming from your power cord to P1. Connect your neutral (white) wire coming from your power cord to the switch (doesn't matter which color). connect the other line from the switch to the P2. Make sure you connect the ground to the ground. The other 3 lines are terminated together with a wire nut (P2, T3, T5) and not used at all. I've just gotten done doing this exact thing over the last couple weeks (different motor, same issues). It took me a little bit of troubleshooting and popping breakers until my brain finally actually worked.
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caveman79
off to a rocking start
Member since July 2018
Posts: 16
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Post by caveman79 on Aug 24, 2018 21:49:04 GMT -5
Disclaimer: I'm not an electrician. Just going based on my experience of replacing the motor on my old LS-18 that I just refurbed.
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Post by parfive on Aug 24, 2018 23:10:58 GMT -5
You’re correct, Jack.
That white wire on the switch . . . wrap some colored tape on both ends. Any color—black, red, whatever’s handy.
Normally, when you’re stuck with a two-wire cable to a switch, you feed the switch on the white and run the black to the load.
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quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
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Post by quartz on Aug 24, 2018 23:27:08 GMT -5
I color white wires that end up "hot", as parfive uses as an example, with a black paint marker just to show me and anyone else working with it that the wire is hot.
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Tousled Owl
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Member since August 2011
Posts: 130
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Post by Tousled Owl on Sept 8, 2018 21:15:47 GMT -5
Sorry for the long delay in following up on this.
Thanks to all for their input and advice!
It turned out that the initial arrangement I proposed (and was validated by all who responded) worked just fine. I'm not an electrician either, caveman, but in the course of writing my question I managed to sort out the "logic" of it as I tried to get the question formulated.
Still, it is great to have some corroboration from those who have greater experience and wisdom. Makes it much easier to put the plug into the socket and push the On button.
So, saw is running fine as far as power, on, off, etc. Now, having replaced the motor, I'm back to my original issue of the thermal breaker on the (new) motor tripping after about 3" of a cut into a piece of <insert something hard here, like lace agate>, just like what was happening with the old motor. I replaced the motor on the theory that it was somewhere past 100,000 miles (I'm the saw's third owner, supposedly) and likely ready to be put out to pasture. Probably the case, but didn't overcome the issue as intended.
I have a new theory to try, but will continue in a new thread so as to keep this one on topic for those looking up this information at a later date.
Thanks again! Jack
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AzRockGeek
has rocks in the head
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Member since September 2016
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Post by AzRockGeek on Sept 8, 2018 22:33:40 GMT -5
That motor should not be over heating, it sounds like the saw is feeding faster then it is cutting, or your arbor is not turning freely and working the motor hard. What is the condition of the blade? Do you have the correct size pulley's ? Do you have two much pressure on the split nut, not allowing the saw to adjust the feed rate?
Don't give up on the saw yet, it is one of the best saws you can get.
Tim
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AzRockGeek
has rocks in the head
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Member since September 2016
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Post by AzRockGeek on Sept 9, 2018 8:36:11 GMT -5
Another thing to check, is your blade parallel with your vise. If the alignment moved the rock slab could be wedging in as it cuts.
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Post by johnjsgems on Sept 12, 2018 12:32:26 GMT -5
Buy a clamp on amp meter and check current draw of motor. Clamp on either wire and compare to rated amps on motor. For the record, always switch the "hot lead" not the neutral in A.C. circuits. If motor over amps, check to see if pulleys wee replaced with wrong sizes. Feed rate/dull blade could be issue also. Alignment too.
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Tousled Owl
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Member since August 2011
Posts: 130
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Post by Tousled Owl on Sept 16, 2018 19:07:23 GMT -5
...or we can continue the thread here, as seems to have happened.
Good advice and input from everyone, so thanks again.
Let me put in responses to the several points above.
1. The switch is breaking the hot side, for the record 2. The bearings seem to be tight, in that I can grab the blade and/or shaft and try to wiggle it in a vertical or horizontal direction and it doesn't have any travel that I can detect 3. I had been running the feed on the 6" pulley of the three-step pulley that seems to be the standard with this model saw. Just to test that possibility, I got a 7" pulley and have been testing most recently with that. Should result in a slower feed rate yet, if I understand this part of the operator's manual. I'll put the original one back on once I get to the bottom of this. I've never run it EXCEPT on the 6" pulley, otherwise. 4. The motor pulley is slightly (maybe an eighth of an inch) bigger than the one that was on the original motor. Both are what I would call 3" pulleys in terms of a rough measurement 5. The blade looks like to me it is in good shape - John would know when he sold it to me, and I've cut a bunch of stuff with it (not sure how to quantify this), but it looks to me like it has good diamond left. It's an MK301 or 303 - I can't keep them straight. 6. The arbor rotates freely as best as I can tell. With no belts on the pulleys, a twist of the wrist on the arbor pulley with about the same force you'd use to turn the key in your car's ignition results in the blade spinning a good revolution or more on its own (the oil in the tank drags it down some, of course) 7. I replaced the split nuts a while ago with the HP "revised" version that allows just the nuts to be replaced hereafter. I had quite a long period of success once I had those (and the blade, and the oil...) replaced, so I don't see them as a factor. Replaced the springs with HP parts at that time as well. 8. John - I will check into the amp meter - somehow I got to this point in life without one. If I am running anything else on the 15 amp circuit with the saw for any length of time, the shop circuit breaker for that branch will trip. This is NOT during startup surges, but probably about the time the motor is getting ready to pop the thermal breaker. This has happened once, and (on a later occasion on another day) the thermal breaker has tripped once before I came back here to talk to some folks that know what they're doing.
Which brings us to blade alignment. I don't have one of the magnetic base dial indicator devices (yet), so I'm trying to approximate that measurement as follows: A. Clamp a metal straight-edge into the vise high enough up that it will pass by the blade flanges B. Run the vise in until the end of the straight-edge is just touching the blade about an inch in from the diamond segments, at the front edge of the blade C. Mark that spot with a marker D. Rotate the blade so that the mark is at the motor end of the saw at about the same height E. Move the vise and straight-edge to the motor end of the saw
I don't have a set of feeler gauges, but it looks to me like there is about 1/64" clear between the marked portion of the blade and the end of the straight-edge. This would cause the vise to pull the saw into the slab being cut at the rock feeds. Which would amount to a bind, which would lead to the motor having to work too hard....
A point of corroboration is that I notice that what slabs do cut (I tried some serpentine, for example), they often crack off the rock during the cut and/or before the blade actually travels past the end of the rock - I visualize this as the saw wedging the slab away from the rock.
1/64" seems like a small alignment fault, but it may be that due to my method of measuring this isn't accurate either, so it could be a greater amount.
Is it possible to adjust the alignment without the dial indicator/magnetic base gadget?
The other thing I observe making this measurement is that as I'm moving the clamped straight-edge front to back, over the central portion of the blade there's as much as 1/32 or 3/64's separation from the end of the straight-edge until I get most of the way to the rear. I'm not tuned in enough to know how much of this is the design of the blade vs. whether it's 'dished' from being forced through too many rocks (slightly) sideways.
I'll take a stab at adjusting the alignment with the tools I have on hand (as well as however you all might suggest). Looks like for peace of mind, that dial indicator thing is a good idea. Does someone make one that gets the job done for less than the $115 that HP wants for theirs?
Thanks for all the help! Jack
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