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Post by rockjunquie on Oct 15, 2018 10:59:05 GMT -5
My daughter is doing a paper on private prisons. I was wondering what y'all's opinions are esp yours Mark K. I have no dog in the fight and open to all opinions. Just curious. Having never been to prison and never knowing anyone in prison, I'm pretty ignorant.
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NRG
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Post by NRG on Oct 15, 2018 15:37:40 GMT -5
They are an abomination. The profit incentive is the antithesis of the purpose for a prison.
The profit motive causes lobbying for stricter punishments on lessor crimes.
.... Causes lobbying for stricter punishments on NEW crimes.
..... Causes lobbying for prison sentences for non crimes (health and safety code violations for instance)
..... Causes medical care to be rationed
..... Causes food quality to decline
There are myriad more. But, these are off the rip off my tongue.
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Post by rockjunquie on Oct 15, 2018 15:52:45 GMT -5
They are an abomination. The profit incentive is the antithesis of the purpose for a prison. The profit motive causes lobbying for stricter punishments on lessor crimes. .... Causes lobbying for stricter punishments on NEW crimes. ..... Causes lobbying for prison sentences for non crimes (health and safety code violations for instance) ..... Causes medical care to be rationed ..... Causes food quality to decline There are myriad more. But, these are off the rip off my tongue. I can't argue with any of that. I was brainstorming with daughter today and doing a lot of reading on the subject. Mainly, because I, too, was interested in the subject. Not that she can't write her own paper, she can. Yeah, too much wrong with it to my mind. At the very least, these corporations need much more oversight.
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Post by Pat on Oct 15, 2018 16:04:49 GMT -5
... and there is no incentive to rehabilitate the prisoners.
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NRG
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Post by NRG on Oct 15, 2018 17:18:55 GMT -5
The problem is our government and it's public employees unions have driven the same bad characteristics.
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Oct 15, 2018 18:29:07 GMT -5
A quick surf on line showed the annual cost of maintaining a single prisoner in New York's state-run prison system during 2012 was over $168,000. That included prisoners just waiting for trial dates. Granted, New York costs are higher than the rest of the country but even at half that rate elsewhere, taxpayers are hit very hard.
There has to be a more realistic solution. I'm not sure I agree that rehabilitation is the main function of prisons. I don't believe in cruel and unusual punishment but I don't think giving dangerous prisoners like Charles Manson anything more pleasant than a cot and three hots a day makes sense.
I read this week about two young men who raped a 9-month-old girl while videotaping the depraved act. I don't believe scum like that can be rehabilitated. IMO even a quick execution would be too kind for that kind of crime. I think I understand the pitfalls of both state and business-run prisons but either way something rational and cost-effective needs to be done with our court and penal systems.
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Mark K
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Post by Mark K on Oct 15, 2018 18:46:34 GMT -5
Both types of prisons are rife with corruption. Both have money as their main objective. The problem with private prisons is that they are 100% for profit. If they do not make a tremendous profit, they fail and then they are pretty much at the mercy of the state or Fed government to either bail them out, or buy the prison they failed at. If the governments do not want the particular prison, the owners are screwed. Everything Scott said was 100% accurate. It is almost like he paid attention to one of my rants. We had some people come to my prison from The Prairie Correctional Facility and they looked like they were about to die. One dude was so bad that he was unable to walk and almost was too weak to talk. A few months later he was playing ball in the yard and I asked him how in the hell he was able to make such a miraculous recovery. He told me that at Appleton, they did not give them any medical treatment that they were not mandated to give them. He said that MN gave him the meds he needed and it was all that he needed to be functional. All in all, private prisons are the devil.
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NRG
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Post by NRG on Oct 15, 2018 19:42:06 GMT -5
A terrific first step would be to end the ill advised war on drugs and simply release all the prisoners whose sole crime is drug related. That alone will cut the prison bill by 80% or so. And thanks for Mark K for his thoughts. ETA Warehousing humans is an ugly a business. We should not be maximizing prisoner count with baloney laws. Keep it to heinous and violent crimes.
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Mark K
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Post by Mark K on Oct 15, 2018 20:03:01 GMT -5
Until we learn that helping druggies is an exercise in futility and leave them to pay for their own mistakes, we should execute anyone selling any class 1 drug except pot.
Property crimes need prison also.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Oct 15, 2018 21:00:55 GMT -5
Until we learn that helping druggies is an exercise in futility and leave them to pay for their own mistakes, we should execute anyone selling any class 1 drug except pot. Property crimes need prison also. My dad used to always say - legalize all drugs, make every tenth dose a lethal dose. Druggies are right up there with liars and thieves, IMHO, as far as being a waste of resources. I feel no remorse saying that. They will never become contributing members of society. With the dry (9 percent) humidity, and Santa Ana winds whipping up, it scares me that the homeless in the nearby canyons are going to set the whole place on fire. Just had a big fire in Oakland started in a homeless encampmentt.
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Post by fernwood on Oct 16, 2018 8:48:49 GMT -5
One was "accidentally" built in WI in 1998. At the time there was a State law prohibiting private prisons. After it was realized that this was an illegal prison, it became jointly owned by the State and a private company. State laws were changed to accommodate this. It is a medium security prison for men, located in the small community of Stanley. The main Interstate in Central WI runs next to it. Capacity of about 1500. Shortly after being built, signs were erected along the Interstate saying "Do Not Pick up Hitchhikers".
It has been a rather low key prison sine inception. Although the costs to the State have been substantial. Not only for purchase, but for being part owner.
More info can be found on it via internet search.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Oct 16, 2018 8:58:34 GMT -5
I'm with Mark on this one. Serious drug dealers, not weed, should be executed along with all serious violent criminals ie Murderers, rapists, armed robbers, armed carjackers etc etc. Permanent removal from society would clean up much of our crime problems and stop repeat offenders and save taxpayers a buttload of money that is wasted on scumbags and prisons....Mel
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Post by rockjunquie on Oct 16, 2018 13:54:04 GMT -5
Thanks for your input, Mark K. I figured you probably knew what you were talking about. Yup, I read an article that says on average private prison inmates lose up to 60 lbs because their diet is the minimum allowed. While I don't think they should have steak and lobster, they should at least be fed enough to stay healthy. And besides, food can be a great distraction and a way to keep prisoners placated to some extent.
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Post by vegasjames on Oct 17, 2018 2:19:42 GMT -5
Just saw a post on Facebook today that was saying the cost of housing one prisoner in these private prisons is more than tuition for a year at Harvard. Maybe if there more focus on education to start with there would be more people employed and less people going to prison.
The whole legal system is so screwed up though. We have judges who think they own the Courts and illegally give themselves immunity for any criminal acts they perform while on the bench. We have prosecutors that hide evidence of innocence to get convictions. Etc.
Then when the people get out most did not learn any legit job skills in prison but learned how to perform crimes better from other prisoners. They are given virtually no help when they get out to get back on their feet and often end up going back to crime to support themselves. There needs to be more focus on legit job skills and general education so they have more to support them when they get out.
And as far as food and in some cases condutions in which they are housed I find it interesting at how the Constitution gets ignored such as cruel and unusual punishment violations. I was really hoping Joe Arpaio was going to be sent to his own jail camps to serve time when he was convicted of a crime. Unfortunately this did not happen and Trump pardoned him.
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Mark K
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Post by Mark K on Oct 17, 2018 20:34:56 GMT -5
vegasjames" Just saw a post on Facebook today that was saying the cost of housing one prisoner in these private prisons is more than tuition for a year at Harvard. Maybe if there more focus on education to start with there would be more people employed and less people going to prison.
The whole legal system is so screwed up though. We have judges who think they own the Courts and illegally give themselves immunity for any criminal acts they perform while on the bench. We have prosecutors that hide evidence of innocence to get convictions. Etc.
I have seen this happen.
Then when the people get out most did not learn any legit job skills in prison but learned how to perform crimes better from other prisoners. They are given virtually no help when they get out to get back on their feet and often end up going back to crime to support themselves. There needs to be more focus on legit job skills and general education so they have more to support them when they get out.
Most of them do not give a damn. They want to get out of work or school and sit in their cells and watch TV.
And as far as food and in some cases conditions in which they are housed I find it interesting at how the Constitution gets ignored such as cruel and unusual punishment violations. I was really hoping Joe Arpaio was going to be sent to his own jail camps to serve time when he was convicted of a crime. Unfortunately this did not happen and Trump pardoned him.
Cruel and unusual does not mean what you think it does.
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Post by vegasjames on Oct 17, 2018 21:04:47 GMT -5
vegasjames" Just saw a post on Facebook today that was saying the cost of housing one prisoner in these private prisons is more than tuition for a year at Harvard. Maybe if there more focus on education to start with there would be more people employed and less people going to prison. The whole legal system is so screwed up though. We have judges who think they own the Courts and illegally give themselves immunity for any criminal acts they perform while on the bench. We have prosecutors that hide evidence of innocence to get convictions. Etc.I have seen this happen. Then when the people get out most did not learn any legit job skills in prison but learned how to perform crimes better from other prisoners. They are given virtually no help when they get out to get back on their feet and often end up going back to crime to support themselves. There needs to be more focus on legit job skills and general education so they have more to support them when they get out. Most of them do not give a damn. They want to get out of work or school and sit in their cells and watch TV. And as far as food and in some cases conditions in which they are housed I find it interesting at how the Constitution gets ignored such as cruel and unusual punishment violations. I was really hoping Joe Arpaio was going to be sent to his own jail camps to serve time when he was convicted of a crime. Unfortunately this did not happen and Trump pardoned him. Cruel and unusual does not mean what you think it does. Not everyone that goes to prison is a hardened criminal that does not care about working. People go to prison for a variety of reasons.
As for cruel and unusual treatment that is a broad definition. Putting prisoners in camps out in the desert when it is over 120F with no cooling I would call cruel. Same with only feeding them bologna sandwiches, which can lead to severe nutritional deficiencies and does not take in to account food allergies and other intolerances.
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Post by greig on Oct 17, 2018 21:44:30 GMT -5
As a concept, one could argue that the private sector can always do the same more efficiently than a government agency. On the other hand, any company that I have worked for has tried to increase revenue and reduce costs * each and every quarter * and management/stockholders are incented to do this. There are only two ways in increase revenue in a PxQ environment in a single faciity. Increase price charged or increase quantity of prisoners (or both), or start selling visitors and prisoners more stuff. It seems to me that there are some jobs/tasks that we want our government to be responsible for; such as regulation, law and order, military and arguably incarceration. There are other things they should keep (the hell) out of performing - most of the rest. In Canada, our government prison system is broken and failing miserably (mostly due to poor oversight), but at least it is not private. Last thought: if it were a private contract and they were underperforming on agreed metrics, they could be considered in breach for cause and fired whereas it is difficult or Impossible to fire a government agency. Also, there is always a problem with metrics as they drive behaviour and sometimes the resulting behaviour becomes the problem (both private and public institutions). For example, if prisoner average weight loss (mentioned above) is a real issue (vs. maybe fat people getting caught and sent to prison), then the prison will feed high carb meals rather than healthier alternatives)... In the end, there is no right answer, only an answer that is somewhat better than the other.
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NRG
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Post by NRG on Oct 17, 2018 22:18:49 GMT -5
Until we learn that helping druggies is an exercise in futility and leave them to pay for their own mistakes, we should execute anyone selling any class 1 drug except pot. Property crimes need prison also. Polite discussion. Nothing more. "Druggies" as you see them are an very small segment of illicit drug users. You see the inmates. You see the people strung out on the streets. You see the segment that cannot regulate their usage. In my life I have noticed a couple things. First, literally thousand of tons of these drugs are being consumed in our nation. We have all seen the perp walks and carefully staged bust presentations. Those are a small percentage of the totals imported. The real numbers are remarkable. The small number of people that are unable to control usage, get strung out, go to prison or die are not enough to consume all of these tons. This means that there are significant numbers of normal drugs users. We work with them. Live near them. Watch movies with them. The mere fact they use illicit drugs is not predictive of social status. I had a boss (chemical engineer) and his wife (PhD Lawyer) both heroin addicts that were/are perfectly functional. I'll reference also, a large number of 70+ year old rock stars, including Keith Richards still walking and using. Secondly, I have noticed that government, peace officers, pace officer unions, and other similar professions have a vested interest in making sure everyone demonizes "druggies". It's careful and successful marketing. It worked. Just look at our friends here in this thread. Suggesting murder is acceptable and other examples. But, the marketing changes. The narrative changes. Five years ago I was excoriated for pointing out weed was "just a flower" and now those same folks exclude pot users. I predict the next large change in narrative will be with "ethneogenic" drugs. Keep your attention on these over the next decade: Psilocybe mushrooms MDMA Ketamine Ibogaine These are showing trememdous promise for neurogenic properties and curative powers for those with neuro injuries such as shell shock.
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Post by stephan on Oct 17, 2018 22:20:12 GMT -5
And don't let anyone tell you that debtors prisons are a thing of the past. People are put away for the "crime" of being unable to pay their bills when they do not get paid fair wages and the cost of everything rises. Once you are in that cycle, everything starts to spin out of control, and the "Consumer Protection Agency" OKs predatory lending practices to the desperate.
If you are rich, it is a different story, of course. You can screw your creditors, contractors, whatever. And you can do it multiple times.
"The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced."
- Frank Zappa
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Post by stephan on Oct 17, 2018 22:28:58 GMT -5
Until we learn that helping druggies is an exercise in futility and leave them to pay for their own mistakes, we should execute anyone selling any class 1 drug except pot. Property crimes need prison also. Polite discussion. Nothing more. "Druggies" as you see them are an very small segment of illicit drug users. You see the inmates. You see the people strung out on the streets. You see the segment that cannot regulate their usage. In my life I have noticed a couple things. First, literally thousand of tons of these drugs are being consumed in our nation. We have all seen the perp walks and carefully staged bust presentations. Those are a small percentage of the totals imported. The real numbers are remarkable. The small number of people that are unable to control usage, get strung out, go to prison or die are not enough to consume all of these tons. This means that there are significant numbers of normal drugs users. We work with them. Live near them. Watch movies with them. The mere fact they use illicit drugs is not predictive of social status. I had a boss (chemical engineer) and his wife (PhD Lawyer) both heroin addicts that were/are perfectly functional. I'll reference also, a large number of 70+ year old rock stars, including Keith Richards still walking and using. Secondly, I have noticed that government, peace officers, pace officer unions, and other similar professions have a vested interest in making sure everyone demonizes "druggies". It's careful and successful marketing. It worked. Just look at our friends here in this thread. Suggesting murder is acceptable and other examples. But, the marketing changes. The narrative changes. Five years ago I was excoriated for pointing out weed was "just a flower" and now those same folks exclude pot users. I predict the next large change in narrative will be with "ethneogenic" drugs. Keep your attention on these over the next decade: Psilocybe mushrooms MDMA Ketamine Ibogaine These are showing trememdous promise for neurogenic properties and curative powers for those with neuro injuries such as shell shock.. Well said, though Keith Richards... I think he may be an outlier that has adapted to using heroin as a carbon source. I'm actually going to go as Keith (ish) for Halloween.
As far as the death penalty. Yes, it may stop repeat offenders, but it does not stop crime. We also have a wee little problem of convicting the wrong person at times. Hard to undo that one. Bad enough if we take away 20 years of freedom. Not a solution in my mind
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