NRG
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Post by NRG on Dec 2, 2018 23:31:02 GMT -5
gemfellerHello Rick! NASA paved a solid path. Technology has advanced by orders of magnitudes since then. Private wealth has grown in a similar fashion. Feels like a natural progression to me.
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 3, 2018 4:04:06 GMT -5
I just don't see it. Again the biggest problem is that we do not have the technology currently to protect the people from the massive amounts of radiation they will be exposed to daily over the 7 month trip there, and it still alive the time they spend there and if they are still alive and not mutated monsters the trip back. I will repeat. Google this "Radiation hysteresis". The human body will surprise even you. You are as in tune with the human body as anyone. I believe even you can be surprised. My brain has bought in. I'm willing to be wrong. And so are his colonists. Nothing ventured, nothing gained OK, I looked it up and I still do not see your point. Here is what came up at top and the rest was about the same thing:
"Certain types of ionization chambers exhibit a response that depends on the length of time elapsed since the previous irradiation. This effect is called hysteresis. "
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NRG
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Member since February 2018
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Post by NRG on Dec 3, 2018 10:29:41 GMT -5
I will repeat. Google this "Radiation hysteresis". The human body will surprise even you. You are as in tune with the human body as anyone. I believe even you can be surprised. My brain has bought in. I'm willing to be wrong. And so are his colonists. Nothing ventured, nothing gained OK, I looked it up and I still do not see your point. Here is what came up at top and the rest was about the same thing:
"Certain types of ionization chambers exhibit a response that depends on the length of time elapsed since the previous irradiation. This effect is called hysteresis. "
Last time I Google these terms I got pages of articles showing those exposed to sub lethal doses of radiation actually have a reduced cancer risk. Airline pilots, whom spend lots of hours above 30,000ft, and astronaut included in the studies. I have to go to work. Will revisit this evening |
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Post by mohs on Dec 3, 2018 12:03:53 GMT -5
One of the reason I post this (Besides being appropriate to Martian colonization dreams) is the short clip it depicts the school drills of duck & cover during the Cuban Missile Crisis Like the cartoon depicts that at the 2 minute mark I participated in the those drills and actually thought those missiles were Going to seek out people who were not hidden or protected Wonder if that cartoon was where I got the idea? when the civil defense sirens wailed, I took my duties of turning out the lights and drawing the curtains in my classroom very seriously  figured it would hide my classmates from the all seeing eyes of the missiles I saved the world -- ha ha |
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 3, 2018 18:27:26 GMT -5
OK, I looked it up and I still do not see your point. Here is what came up at top and the rest was about the same thing:
"Certain types of ionization chambers exhibit a response that depends on the length of time elapsed since the previous irradiation. This effect is called hysteresis. "
Last time I Google these terms I got pages of articles showing those exposed to sub lethal doses of radiation actually have a reduced cancer risk. Airline pilots, whom spend lots of hours above 30,000ft, and astronaut included in the studies. I have to go to work. Will revisit this evening According to this study there is an increase in cancer rates among pilots due to the radiation:
Related articles:
And the radiation and astronauts:
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Post by opalpyrexia on Dec 3, 2018 19:11:19 GMT -5
Last time I Google these terms I got pages of articles showing those exposed to sub lethal doses of radiation actually have a reduced cancer risk. Airline pilots, whom spend lots of hours above 30,000ft, and astronaut included in the studies. I have to go to work. Will revisit this evening According to this study there is an increase in cancer rates among pilots due to the radiation: I didn't peruse your links, vegasjames , but earlier today I read this article: "Study: Collateral damage from cosmic rays increases cancer risks for Mars astronauts" Basically, the topic is a study that shows that the current risk model for estimating cancer risk from cosmic radiation is too conservative. It says that the cancer risk should be double that to account for subsequent, collateral damage to "bystander" cells.
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 3, 2018 22:39:40 GMT -5
According to this study there is an increase in cancer rates among pilots due to the radiation: I didn't peruse your links, vegasjames , but earlier today I read this article: "Study: Collateral damage from cosmic rays increases cancer risks for Mars astronauts" Basically, the topic is a study that shows that the current risk model for estimating cancer risk from cosmic radiation is too conservative. It says that the cancer risk should be double that to account for subsequent, collateral damage to "bystander" cells.
Your article is stating the same thing I have been saying all along and pointed out in the links I provided.
Interestingly the article you linked is by a professor here in Las Vegas at the University of Nevada Las Vegas. I guess the people in Las Vegas know a lot about radiation maybe from all our exposure from the Nevada Test Site.  |
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NRG
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Post by NRG on Dec 4, 2018 0:35:25 GMT -5
Speaking of Elon Musk, did anyone here on the West Coast catch the Space X launch from Vandenberg this morning? It was scheduled for 10:32 a.m. but it slipped my mind so I missed it. I saw a previous Space X night launch 3-4 weeks ago and it was fascinating. It was the first successful return of the reusable first stage to the launch pad. It was eerie from my distant perch to watch it firing its retro-rockets and maneuvering to a landing. I read somewhere it landed just a few feet from the pad where it had launched from. I recall reading Robert A. Heinlein SF stories decades ago speculating that private enterprise would take over the next phase of space exploration. It all came back to me this week when several such entrepreneurs announced a non-government-sponsored return to the moon in the near future. It flew today. Perfectly. I missed it. |
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NRG
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Posts: 1,688
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Post by NRG on Dec 4, 2018 0:40:40 GMT -5
Not one rocket scientist or extraterrestrial physiologist amongst us. We each feel like we actually have a grasp of what is needed for this endeavor. I assure each and every one you us (me too!) does not.
Ignorance feels exactly as knowledge.
Three years ago all of us would have said landing a launch vehicle for reuse is a fools errand. Today it's routine.
Time will educate all of us. Elon Musk and everyone else too.
I put a nickel on Elon's success in putting humans on Mars by end of year 2038.
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Post by Pat on Dec 4, 2018 0:48:37 GMT -5
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 4, 2018 2:13:37 GMT -5
Not one rocket scientist or extraterrestrial physiologist amongst us. We each feel like we actually have a grasp of what is needed for this endeavor. I assure each and every one you us (me too!) does not. Ignorance feels exactly as knowledge. Three years ago all of us would have said landing a launch vehicle for reuse is a fools errand. Today it's routine. Time will educate all of us. Elon Musk and everyone else too. I put a nickel on Elon's success in putting humans on Mars by end of year 2038. Only a nickel? Not much faith!!!
And if you paid attention to what I said earlier I said with CURRENT technology there is no way to pull this off. Maybe in the net few decades we will find a way to protect these people from the massive amounts of radiation they will be exposed to during the trip and when they get there. It would have to block a variety of radiation sources and would have to be light enough and strong enough to be launched in to space economically and can handle the stresses it will be exposed to. That is just one of the various problems that will have to be solved by 2038 if you do not want to lose that nickel you are willing to bet.
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Post by parfive on Dec 4, 2018 2:17:31 GMT -5
Three years ago all of us would have said landing a launch vehicle for reuse is a fools errand. Today it's routine. I put a nickel on Elon's success in putting humans on Mars by end of year 2038. And sometimes, three years doesn’t get you very far. Might be 2038 by the time some of these cars get delivered. : ) • Tesla started taking orders for Model 3 in April, 2016 • 276,000 orders placed first 3 days (about half a million currently on the books} As of today, December 4, 2018:
Our best estimate is that Tesla has manufactured 136,555 Model 3s so far—or 42,286 in the current quarter—and is now building approximately 4,424 a week.
www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/
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NRG
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Member since February 2018
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Post by NRG on Dec 4, 2018 10:36:27 GMT -5
Yes , James. A nickel.
We disagree on the dangers of radiation. We disagree in your expertise in this advanced field. We are aware of engineering advances happening at a great rate. He is landing rockets under power on barges. Something thought impossible 3 years ago.
And Rich
I get your point on car delivery. Ha! Yet his company has greater value than companies producing huge numbers of cars. Instead those old guard companies have the opposite problem. No demand. Closing plants. Killing jobs. Elon can hire those folks and ramp up his production. It's a crazy mixed up world we live in!
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Post by mohs on Dec 4, 2018 17:14:52 GMT -5
C'MON !
Let's go space truck'n
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 4, 2018 17:29:49 GMT -5
Yes , James. A nickel. We disagree on the dangers of radiation. We disagree in your expertise in this advanced field. We are aware of engineering advances happening at a great rate. He is landing rockets under power on barges. Something thought impossible 3 years ago. And Rich I get your point on car delivery. Ha! Yet his company has greater value than companies producing huge numbers of cars. Instead those old guard companies have the opposite problem. No demand. Closing plants. Killing jobs. Elon can hire those folks and ramp up his production. It's a crazy mixed up world we live in! Then show me the research you claim that the radiation decreases cancer risk. I already posted the evidence that it increases the risk. Your simply saying you disagree is not proof.
And again there are so many other issues to overcome such as loss of bone density, which is another big problem with astronauts, how to build a habitat and one that will not only protect them from the radiation but also micrometeorites to full size meteorites, how to provide enough water and food for the people going to last the 7 months there, the time they are there and if coming back for that time, supplying the oxygen they need for that entire time, etc, etc, etc. So may things to overcome and so few of them really addressed properly in the proposal.
Anyway I am willing to review those studies you have been touting so I will wait for you to post them.
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Post by parfive on Dec 4, 2018 18:30:38 GMT -5
Nov 15 - Elon Musk’s aerospace company received word that the Federal Communications Commission had approved its proposal to put more than 7,500 satellites into orbit.
The government agency had already given SpaceX permission to deploy 4,425 satellites in March, so in all the company will be able to launch nearly 12,000 satellites for its Starlink constellation, which aims to provide global broadband internet service.
Other satellite companies including Telesat, LeoSat and Kepler Communications were also approved to put satellites in orbit, though in much smaller numbers — only 335 total.
Colonizing any place......... mankind has left it's "residuals" everywhere. It's no secret that humans are a wasteful bunch.......curious what would be planned to handle bi-products and environmentally sensitive materials we've covered this planet with, on any surface we would inhabit.........?
Given we've only been able to figure out here on Earth, how to safely and economically re-cycle and distribute only about 50% of our "waste" to date........leaving "pockets" of hazards every where we've been......to include the cosmos...........? Yes, and we have already polluted outer space already. Look at all the man-made crap that is floating around in space around Earth alone. Dr. Space Junk Unearths the Cultural Landscape of the Cosmos
NASA estimates that there are now more than five hundred thousand bits of human-made debris the size of a marble or larger in Earth orbit. The visual models are striking: Our planet is like a giant beach ball completely surrounded by a dense layer of M&M’s (the debris in low Earth orbit), and also by sparser concentric circles of M&M’s (the debris at other altitudes, such as geostationary orbit, mostly used for telecommunications). This doesn’t even take into account the millions of pieces of debris that are smaller than one centimetre. The Australian researcher Ben Greene says that within twenty years space could be so clogged as to be unusable.
From the swarms of debris in the slide she’d projected on the observatory’s basement wall, Gorman singled out satellites, telling their stories as if they were old friends. She introduced us to Vanguard 1, the oldest human-made object in space, and the first to use solar power. Launched in 1958 by the U.S., the tiny spacecraft was at the time disparagingly called the “grapefruit satellite” by Khrushchev. It may have been small but its ambitions were big: Vanguard 1 proved that Earth is not a perfect sphere but closer to being ever so slightly pear-shaped.
Next, we met the U.S. Navy-launched TRAAC satellite, which relayed data on the devastating effects of the Starfish Prime high-altitude nuclear tests, performed in 1962 (the Soviets did their own tests the same year). The tests created an artificial radiation belt around the Earth, which eventually disabled a third of all satellites in orbit at the time, TRAAC included. But it’s still up there . . .
In 2000, O’Leary and one of her past students at New Mexico State University, Ralph Gibson, led a small team to launch the Lunar Legacy Project, an effort to inventory the human-created features and the more than a hundred artifacts abandoned at the Apollo 11 landing site—everything from food bags to boots, defecation-collection devices, and even the plastic covering used for the U.S. flag. The astronauts had eight minutes in which to decide what to dump and what to take back to Earth. It struck O’Leary that this was similar to the “drop zone” and “toss zone,” which her mentor, Lewis Binford, had observed while doing field work with Nunamiut people in Alaska. In a classic 1978 paper, Binford noted that items entered the archeological record through being dropped (at the hearths where men ate) or tossed (chewed bones chucked over the men’s shoulders). O’Leary called up the elderly Binford, who had been on her Ph.D. committee, to tell him about the connection. “That’s pretty good,” he said. “Eskimos and astronauts.”
www.newyorker.com/culture/persons-of-interest/dr-space-junk-unearths-the-cultural-landscape-of-the-cosmos
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NRG
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Member since February 2018
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Post by NRG on Dec 4, 2018 19:22:04 GMT -5
Yes , James. A nickel. We disagree on the dangers of radiation. We disagree in your expertise in this advanced field. We are aware of engineering advances happening at a great rate. He is landing rockets under power on barges. Something thought impossible 3 years ago. And Rich I get your point on car delivery. Ha! Yet his company has greater value than companies producing huge numbers of cars. Instead those old guard companies have the opposite problem. No demand. Closing plants. Killing jobs. Elon can hire those folks and ramp up his production. It's a crazy mixed up world we live in! Then show me the research you claim that the radiation decreases cancer risk. I already posted the evidence that it increases the risk. Your simply saying you disagree is not proof.
And again there are so many other issues to overcome such as loss of bone density, which is another big problem with astronauts, how to build a habitat and one that will not only protect them from the radiation but also micrometeorites to full size meteorites, how to provide enough water and food for the people going to last the 7 months there, the time they are there and if coming back for that time, supplying the oxygen they need for that entire time, etc, etc, etc. So may things to overcome and so few of them really addressed properly in the proposal.
Anyway I am willing to review those studies you have been touting so I will wait for you to post them.
Naw. It's clear your dick is bigger, and you are definitely the smartest guy in this room. I see no need even waste a second googling. I concede. You are correct. Man will never set foot on Mars. This discussion is mute. Because you said so. No need to continue. You may now take your victory lap and drop the mic when done. |
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 4, 2018 20:11:27 GMT -5
Then show me the research you claim that the radiation decreases cancer risk. I already posted the evidence that it increases the risk. Your simply saying you disagree is not proof.
And again there are so many other issues to overcome such as loss of bone density, which is another big problem with astronauts, how to build a habitat and one that will not only protect them from the radiation but also micrometeorites to full size meteorites, how to provide enough water and food for the people going to last the 7 months there, the time they are there and if coming back for that time, supplying the oxygen they need for that entire time, etc, etc, etc. So may things to overcome and so few of them really addressed properly in the proposal.
Anyway I am willing to review those studies you have been touting so I will wait for you to post them.
Naw. It's clear your dick is bigger, and you are definitely the smartest guy in this room. I see no need even waste a second googling. I concede. You are correct. Man will never set foot on Mars. This discussion is mute. Because you said so. No need to continue. You may now take your victory lap and drop the mic when done. No need to be a complete ass about this.
First of all the burden of proof is on the original claimant. You claimed some supposed studies showing a lower risk of cancer from the radiation. You wold not provide the studies. Still I Googled what you said to Google and it showed NOTHING to back your claim. So I searched the risk of cancer in pilots and astronauts that you falsely claimed had lower cancer rates from the radiation exposure. So I posted various links I found showing a higher incidence of cancer. Opalpyrexia also posted a study showing the increase in cancer among pilots, opposite of what you claimed. I could not find anything backing your claim. So don't get pissed off at me because you make up some BS and I call you on it and provide actual evidence to the contrary since you have no evidence to present.
And finally some reading comprehension lessons would be really beneficial for you. At NO TIME did I say humans would never set foot on Mars. So again learn reading comprehension and stop making up BS about what I said. What I really said and said VERY CLEARLY A COUPLE OF TIMES is that we CURRENTLY do not have the technology to make the trip mainly due to the radiation exposure. And I made it clear that there are other WELL KNOWN problems with long-term space travel such as loss of one density, the need for water and oxygen, the need for suitable shelters if we colonize, avoidance of meteorites, etc. that all need to be addressed BEFORE this happens. I just don't see this happening in the NEAR FUTURE, which IS NOT the same as NEVER!!! Understand yet?
Who knows, maybe when the aliens come back to take that probe out they shoved too far up your ass you can ask them if they can make a quick stop at Mars for you so you can set foot on the planet before 2038 so you can prove me wrong and win that nickel that all you you were willing to risk on your bet.
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Post by Rockoonz on Dec 4, 2018 21:07:24 GMT -5
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Post by vegasjames on Dec 4, 2018 22:14:06 GMT -5
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